QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

  1. I asked people on the internet if all bathrooms should be gender neutral. Most said yes.

  2. You still have the right not to use someone's pronouns. No one can force you. I have the right to call you a TERF and dismiss your opinions.

  3. You're welcome to work in a private school or another school district. The point is, sometimes your work may require you to go against your beliefs. For instance a catholic teacher who refuses to teach evolution.

  4. Most QTs believe you can refuse to date anyone for any reason.

  5. Yes our side considers the other side transphobic bigots. We have the right to our opinions, GCs have the right to theirs.

  6. I was assigned female based on observation.

  7. There are plenty of other bookshops you can shop.

  8. Threats are not OK.

  9. Etsy is a private company. They can make whatever rules they want. If you don't like the rules, you can sell your stuff elsewhere. You can boycott Etsy if you want.

  10. If you create gender critical only spaces, no one will invade them as they will have a reputation for being transphobic and bigoted.

  11. To us GC speech is hate speech. So we see this as banning hate speech.

  12. I read Ovarit and have to see QTs troll Ovarit. I do remember QTs trolling r/gendercritical though.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

  1. Who did you ask? Also- thinking bathrooms should be gender neutral doesn’t mean they’ve swallowed TRA rhetoric

  2. I’m saying we should have the right to not use forced pronouns without repercussions professionally and without receiving threats. Idgaf if someone wants to dismiss me on a personal level. My point is pronouns should be optional, where it matters. Like people shouldn’t have to worry about being fired for not feeding misogyny. People should not have to choose between speaking against their beliefs ans having a job. A catholic teacher can have a whole career and never have to teach evolution. People who don’t want to lie about sex can’t avoid pronoun enforcement so easily. My whole thing that I keep wanting you to address is- even if you think what you believe is truth and fact, how can you dismiss the fact that others believe differently? A catholic teacher can work in a public school and teach a grade or subject that doesn’t touch evolution. Forcing ideology through pronouns would still be something they’d have to deal with.

  3. I’d rather fight for people to have freedom of speech than tell people who understand basic biology to gaslight themselves daily. People shouldn’t have to hide the fact that they understand sex in humans to protect anyone’s feelings imo

  4. You’re just gonna ignore my point and that’s fine I’m done pushing qt to address what I’m actually saying.

  5. See number 4 lol

  6. Sex isn’t assigned. If anything you were assigned female by your dad’s sperm but everything else is just how you developed. And even your dad didn’t intentionally make you female. Unless you’re intersex and your sex had to be determined? Pretty sure intersex people have asked qt to stop equating being observed the sex you were born with being assigned one but moving on...

  7. Don’t have to because people showed up to support jkr and the store reconsidered. It’s gonna be a small ass world for tras if you just banish everyone who disagrees with you lol

  8. At least you’ll acknowledge that

  9. Again- Etsy let her put the shop back up and it’s thriving. Etsy gave into woke culture and then changed their mind. A lot of sites are allowing gc stuff more and more lately I’ve noticed

  10. They literally did invade GC spaces how are you missing what I’m saying?

  11. To us, banning logic sounds like knowing your ideology is founded on things you can’t prove and so instead of trying you suppress and silence which... historically, the bad side does this...

  12. I’ve seen it but I’m no longer on the site to screen shot it. Point is still that QT could just ignore GC subs and spaces. But even though nobody on gc threatened anyone or harmed anyone, they had to silence the women who disagree with them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

  1. I asked BabyCenter and DC Urban Mom. BabyCenter is a TRA site. As far as I know, GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces.

  2. Employers are allowed to fire you for posting racist, sexist and homophobic speech on your social media. Why is transphobia the exception? If this is an issue for you, go speak to your politicians. Then it will be illegal for employers to fire you based on racist, sexist, ableist, anti-Semitic, homophobic and transphobic speech you post on social media.

Also, as a cis woman (not that the cis part matters to us), pronouns are not feeding misogyny.

  1. I understand basic biology. That doesn't mean you can say what you want without repercussions.

  2. Sex is assigned.

  3. Etsy is a private company. They can make whatever rules they want.

  4. To us, we are banning hate speech.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I asked BabyCenter and DC Urban Mom. BabyCenter is a TRA site. As far as I know, GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces.

Maybe you should broaden your perspective and do your "polling" not online but in person at churches, mosques, synagogues, senior centers, nursing homes, NFL and NBA games, workplaces, gyms, swimming pools, rec centers, maternity wards, department store changing rooms, sororities, fraternities and so on.

When you do, be sure to ask fathers, mothers and grandparents of girls how they feel about their small daughters or granddaughters having to use restrooms in the company of grown men and teenage boys with their dicks out, and whether they think their pubescent and teenage daughters should be forced to undress in front of boys and men who'll be eyeing or staring at the girls with lust as they lick and smack their lips and make lewd comments. Be sure to ask some visibly pregnant women if they want to have to disrobe and express breast milk in front of men as well.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I was responding to your fatuous claim that based on the polling you say you've done on two web forums - one which you admit is TRA site, and the other is a forum for parents in Washington, DC USA - you can pronounce for with total assurance that

GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces

In the whole wide world. I was suggesting that by focusing your "polling" on such a small, narrow group you were missing a lot of the earth's human population.

But rather than address my point, you respond by saying only

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

Which just goes to show that you seem to think this is all about you, and only you. That you and your wants and the wants of other trans-identified people are all that matters.

Also, the central issue concerning single sex spaces is far less about about female people using men's spaces than male people using female spaces. Female people in male spaces and sports don't pose a threat to the males there. But male people in female spaces and sports do indeed pose a great many threats to the girls and women who need our own spaces and sports and have put a great deal of effort into creating and campaigning for them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

I am all for all placee being unisex (except sports) but I'm not opposed to females creating their own spaces. Open up your own park with segregated bathrooms. Open up your schools and gyms. Just don't expect any government funding. By the way, I'm not trans. I'm a cis woman.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Unixes spaces are creating huge problems and are dangerous for women. In Africa because of unisex toilets, teen girls are not coming to school during menstruation, and getting behind, for example. In western world at least third of rapes by strangers are happening in public multi-cab unisex toilets as well. Public locker rooms and dressing rooms unisex are complete nonsense as well. In majority of cases unisex spaces are unconvinient or harmful for women. And because you are fine with them (I suppose you almost never using those?) - does not mean that majority of women would be fine with this and that it will help women at all.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Girls in africa miss school because they are humiliated for having a period, and there is lack of access to menstrual products like pads or cups or even a lack of bathrooms. One 14 year old girl took her own life after being humiliated by a teacher after having her period and staining her uniform.

Kenyan schoolgirl takes her own life after 'period shaming'

Globally, periods are causing girls to be absent from school

Why Periods Are Keeping Girls Out of School & How You Can Help

This has nothing to do with unisex bathrooms, which I have been using for years without a problem. If someone is harassing someone else, it's their behavior that is a problem, not their presence. Though I do recall an incident in high school where I was harassed by fellow cis girls in the locker room. That's OK apparently, because we're all females.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Previously you said

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

Now you say

This has nothing to do with unisex bathrooms, which I have been using for years without a problem.

So which is it? Is it "men's rooms" or "unisex bathrooms" which you've been using "since I was a teenager/for years"? Also, exactly how long a period are you speaking of? It's not at all clear whether you were a teenager two or 20 years ago.

The larger point is that the issues being discussed on this thread are not about you and what you as a lone individual have a problem with or have personally experienced.

I do recall an incident in high school where I was harassed by fellow cis girls in the locker room. That's OK apparently, because we're all females.

Again, this is not about you - it's about the nearly 8 billion human inhabitants of planet earth.

Also, no one here has said any kind of harassment is OK. Girls and women are perfectly capable of being unkind, cruel and/or abusive to others of the opposite and our own sex.

But just coz girls and women can be guilty of harassment and bullying doesn't mean we should get rid of all safeguards put in place to protect female people from predation, abuse, intimidation, harassment, menacing, stalking and assault by members of the opposite sex.

Finally, for the record, during childhood and adolescence pretty much everyone gets harassed, bullied, picked on, razzed at some point, or frequently. Even the "cis" girls and "cool kids." This can be deeply unpleasant to go through, but it's closer to a universal human experience than one unique to you.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

it's their behavior that is a problem, not their presence.

If it was so easy to fix men's behaviour, rape and trafficing cases would be almost non existent, and sex segregation with safe spaces would not be needed.

Men, especially young boys, often do not understand what is menstruation. Menstruation talks is still taboo even in the western world, where advertisement can be removed from TV, because "it is gross" or "explanation of putting tampon inside looks too sexual". In other countries menstruation is considered "dirty" and in some religions women during menstruation has less rights and are not allowed to do some activities. In some countries there are menstruation huts because of how it seen.

Girl may have her first menstruation, is confused and ashamed about her body acting this strange - and then boys, who never could even remotely understand how it feels "will be boys" and even lighthearted joke can hurt that girl.

In unisex spaces in Korea there is huge problem with spy-cams and holes in toilets to "look through". It happens in women's toilets too there, thought, but on a lesser scale than in unisex toilets.

And so on.

I am both hands up on fixing such men's behaviour, on rapists dissapearing and rapes not happenign anymore, on destigmatizing menstruation, on providing sanitary products to women in need. And until this all is not fixed - we do need segregated and safe spaces for women. And even after we still will need some women spaces just for comfort, as our needs with men are a bit different, and sometimes women just want to be away from men in a world made for men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not opposed to females creating their own spaces. Open up your own park with segregated bathrooms. Open up your schools and gyms. Just don't expect any government funding. By the way, I'm not trans. I'm a cis woman.

Sorry I got your sex wrong. I thought earlier you said you used male toilet facilities outside the home, and everything you say sounds like it came straight out of the big book of trans clichés and propaganda, so I got confused. My bad.

Sex-separated facilities for toileting, changing, showering, getting & giving, certain types of medical care, healing from sexual trauma like rape, escaping from domestic violence, expressing breast milk and so on are legal in the country I'm a citizen of - the US - and in the other country where prior to COVID I was spending a lot of time, the UK.

I am old enough to remember when girls and women had no sports or locker rooms in schools in the US, and in many places didn't have PE either - and we had to campaign for them, then build our sports programs from scratch. When I was in college, when we women finally got our own locker room in the athletic center at my previously male-only uni, it turned out not to have any lockable lockers, which meant we couldn't leave our belongings in there safely when at the athletic center - and we had to lug around all our kit and sports equipment back and forth from our dorms or apartments each and every day. So we had to beg and plead and raise money for lockers. When we finally got lockers, the next thing that happened was that the water in the locker room was mysteriously always turned off - so we couldn't shower, wash or hands or use the toilets. Then when the mysterious "plumbing problems" were solved, the toilets were always clogged and overflowing and every day the floors were flooded...

You seem to think girls and women were handed own locker rooms, toilets and sports on a silver platter, and that now we all should be forced to give them up. Coz after 40+ years of fair(ish) play for girls and women, you've decided "time's up - that's enough." You may be a woman, but you sure sound like one who also hates others of your sex and is entirely ignorant of what previous generations of women went through to win the right for the spaces and provisions you want to remove.

I was also involved in creating shelters for battered women in the 1970s and 80s, as well as services for female victims of rape and other forms of male sexual violence, and support groups for women dealing with issues affecting us as females, like birth injuries, miscarriage and menopause. We women did this all on our time and on our own, using our own money or funds we privately raised through donations. Only much later did any such facilities and programs get any government funding.

BTW, although it seems you think you are the boss of the world and what you decree goes, in fact you are not the government of the US or any US state or municipality or any other country. Your word and wish isn't the law. And you don't control the public purse.

Also, since you seem to think that US federal, state and local taxpayer funds are yours and yours alone to dole out or withhold, I'm very curious as to how many years you've been paying income and other taxes such as property and investment-related taxes - and how much you've paid in total taxes exclusive of sales and luxury taxes over your career/lifetime. I also wonder if you've ever served on a jury, a government board, a budget committee, in the military, or done any other civic duty/public service like serving as a volunteer at a food bank, fire department or EMS, crisis hotline, homeless shelter, hospice, home for the disabled, literacy program, school, public library, charity and so on.

I wonder this coz IME, people who've been paying income and other "grown up" taxes for the bulk of their lives and who've been involved in the democratic process and have a history of personally contributing to civic and community life in meaningful ways tend not to talk the way you do. They tend to be aware that in a society such as the ones that countries like the US and UK aim to be, the rights and needs of all citizens and residents need to be considered, not just their own. And they tend to believe that public funds are for the public and should be distributed to serve everyone's interests, not just to their own small "in" group for the purpose of fulfilling their own narrow agenda and meeting their own needs exclusively.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

The issue was that bathrooms and locker rooms were male only, so women demanded their own separate facilities. I have no issue with desegregating facilities.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I have no issue with desegregating facilities.

Yeah, we know you have no issue with this. You've made it clear throughout this thread that you think you and people who share your identical mindset are the only persons who count. You've repeatedly referred to persons with views different to yours as "bigots" and have called for them/us to be treated as less worthy than you. You've also made it clear that your sole point of reference is your own personal experience.

Other quotes of yours just from the tail end of this thread that show you think you are the only person who matters and also are an authoritarian who is entirely unaware - or just couldn't care less - that other people have life experience and needs different to your own. Your lack of empathy is so total you really seem to believe you have the right to trample over, ostracize, punish and exclude from society those whose experiences and POVs diverge from yours:

I am all for all placee being unisex

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

Open up your own park with segregated bathrooms. Open up your schools and gyms. Just don't expect any government funding.

I understand basic biology. That doesn't mean you can say what you want without repercussions.

Also, I don't think you understand basic biology at all.