QT: A question of ideology

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

  1. Who did you ask? Also- thinking bathrooms should be gender neutral doesn’t mean they’ve swallowed TRA rhetoric

  2. I’m saying we should have the right to not use forced pronouns without repercussions professionally and without receiving threats. Idgaf if someone wants to dismiss me on a personal level. My point is pronouns should be optional, where it matters. Like people shouldn’t have to worry about being fired for not feeding misogyny. People should not have to choose between speaking against their beliefs ans having a job. A catholic teacher can have a whole career and never have to teach evolution. People who don’t want to lie about sex can’t avoid pronoun enforcement so easily. My whole thing that I keep wanting you to address is- even if you think what you believe is truth and fact, how can you dismiss the fact that others believe differently? A catholic teacher can work in a public school and teach a grade or subject that doesn’t touch evolution. Forcing ideology through pronouns would still be something they’d have to deal with.

  3. I’d rather fight for people to have freedom of speech than tell people who understand basic biology to gaslight themselves daily. People shouldn’t have to hide the fact that they understand sex in humans to protect anyone’s feelings imo

  4. You’re just gonna ignore my point and that’s fine I’m done pushing qt to address what I’m actually saying.

  5. See number 4 lol

  6. Sex isn’t assigned. If anything you were assigned female by your dad’s sperm but everything else is just how you developed. And even your dad didn’t intentionally make you female. Unless you’re intersex and your sex had to be determined? Pretty sure intersex people have asked qt to stop equating being observed the sex you were born with being assigned one but moving on...

  7. Don’t have to because people showed up to support jkr and the store reconsidered. It’s gonna be a small ass world for tras if you just banish everyone who disagrees with you lol

  8. At least you’ll acknowledge that

  9. Again- Etsy let her put the shop back up and it’s thriving. Etsy gave into woke culture and then changed their mind. A lot of sites are allowing gc stuff more and more lately I’ve noticed

  10. They literally did invade GC spaces how are you missing what I’m saying?

  11. To us, banning logic sounds like knowing your ideology is founded on things you can’t prove and so instead of trying you suppress and silence which... historically, the bad side does this...

  12. I’ve seen it but I’m no longer on the site to screen shot it. Point is still that QT could just ignore GC subs and spaces. But even though nobody on gc threatened anyone or harmed anyone, they had to silence the women who disagree with them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

  1. I asked BabyCenter and DC Urban Mom. BabyCenter is a TRA site. As far as I know, GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces.

  2. Employers are allowed to fire you for posting racist, sexist and homophobic speech on your social media. Why is transphobia the exception? If this is an issue for you, go speak to your politicians. Then it will be illegal for employers to fire you based on racist, sexist, ableist, anti-Semitic, homophobic and transphobic speech you post on social media.

Also, as a cis woman (not that the cis part matters to us), pronouns are not feeding misogyny.

  1. I understand basic biology. That doesn't mean you can say what you want without repercussions.

  2. Sex is assigned.

  3. Etsy is a private company. They can make whatever rules they want.

  4. To us, we are banning hate speech.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

  1. Lol

  2. The thing is, transphobia pretty much now just means “whatever upsets trans people, even if it’s just the abject truth”. People arent getting fired for calling trans people freaks, abominations, tr**nies, or wishing to kill them, people are getting fired for acknowledging that TW are biologically male or that sex is real and that it’s relevant. That’s bullshit.

3a. Lmao no it’s not it’s absurd to claim it is.

3b. If it’s assigned, how is it assigned? And why? What are the steps taken and the reasoning for those steps? And how does one change a sex that’s been assigned? What’s the criteria for changing it?

/4. And to the rest of the world, your making the internet a safe bubble for you because you can’t ever get the real world to fully behave ans speak how you want. And it doesn’t matter because it’s all gonna blow up in your face. In the long run tras are making things worse for trans people and many trans people agree with this. I hope one day you come to your senses. If you’re a female, you’re supporting your own oppression.

/5. After the victim blaming was considered acceptable, I very well may either take a break or leave altogether. I can’t really be here if what masks said if considered okay by the admins/mods. It was an interesting discussion thanks.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Sorry for the late reply. I had a sore throat.

  1. Transphobia does not mean whatever upsets trans people. People are getting fired for saying trans women are men, trans men are women, calling trans people narcissists, delusional, fetishists, fujoshis, etc.

  2. Most of us recognize that gender is different from biological sex. We just don't believe people should be defined by their biology and biology is irrelevant outside of a medical context.

  3. Sex is assigned on our birth certificates based on observations.

  4. I fully understand I can't get the world to behave how I want.

  5. Please don't tell me I'm supporting my own oppression. You don't even get to decide how I'm opposed as a female. I have multiple marginalized identities. Not only am I female, I am Jewish and learning disabled. In my life, I was discriminated more due to being learning disabled than I was due to being female and Jewish combined. I know oppression. You don't get to tell me I'm supporting my own oppression.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

“Transphobia does not mean whatever upsets trans people.

People are getting fired for saying trans women are men”

Because it upsets trans people. There’s nothing to prove that transwomen aren’t men. Or that they are women.

“trans men are women,”

Because it upsets trans people. There’s nothing that proves that transmen aren’t women, or that they are men.

“calling trans people narcissists, delusional, fetishists, fujoshis, etc.”

Because it upsets trans people. There’s actual studies that show that narcissism is commonly found in trans people, thinking you are something you literally are not is delusional, agp is a fetish even if it doesn’t apply to all trans people, and idk what a fujoshi is but if all the other things are sometimes applicable to trans people I won’t dismiss the possibility that this last one is also

“Most of us recognize that gender is different from biological sex. We just don't believe people should be defined by their biology and biology is irrelevant outside of a medical context.”

I’m saying you should be able to believe what you want but respect that others disagree and your beliefs shouldn’t be pushed on others. Others shouldn’t have to pretend to agree. Also, there’s no reason that gender should matter more and be more protected than sex.

Sex is assigned on our birth certificates based on observations.

But you’re not going to answer the other questions? Is it observed based on fat distribution? Hair length? How soft the baby’s skin is? What are they observing and why is that what determines sex???

I fully understand I can't get the world to behave how I want.

Your comment history indicates that this is a lie

Please don't tell me I'm supporting my own oppression. You don't even get to decide how I'm opposed as a female. I have multiple marginalized identities. Not only am I female, I am Jewish and learning disabled.”

You can support the oppression of females but not of Jewish people or the disabled...

“In my life, I was discriminated more due to being learning disabled than I was due to being female and Jewish combined.”

Then no disrespect meant but this is not related to the topic of discussion. Just because you personally haven’t faced (or more likely don’t realize you’ve faced) oppression due to being female, doesn’t mean that other females are oppression free. When you advocate for forcing males into female categories and spaces (mad rights, and sexuality, etc) you absolutely advocate for female oppression. Whether you see it or not. Unless you support female equality and the ability for females to have their own spaces, sports, representation, the ability to be classed as separate from their oppressors (males) you’re supporting the downfall of the women’s rights movement.

“I know oppression.”

But apparently not female oppression? So what relevance does this have to the topic? It seems like you think since you haven’t faced the same types of oppression that many females are speaking out against, you are blind to it. And rather than listen to what females who don’t think like you say, you dismiss us and cling to your belief while telling us that if we don’t like it we can form our own communities away from everyone else, only work in specific places, and be subjected to ridicule and dismissal if we refuse to conform to your beliefs. Sounds like you do know oppression. But don’t seem to realize that people who support oppression often know exactly what oppression is. Your knowledge of oppression doesn’t automatically mean that your beliefs don’t reinforce and support it.

“You don't get to tell me I'm supporting my own oppression”

Not just yours, all females.

Eta- considering how much you push to ostracize and silence anyone who doesn’t think like you and refuses to play along, sounds like you support the oppression of anyone, male or female, who doesn’t think like you do.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

People are getting fired for saying trans women are men”

Because it upsets trans people. There’s nothing to prove that transwomen aren’t men. Or that they are women.

“trans men are women,”

Because it upsets trans people. There’s nothing that proves that transmen aren’t women, or that they are men.

There is nothing to prove trans women are men and trams men are women.

There’s actual studies that show that narcissism is commonly found in trans people,

Link to them.

thinking you are something you literally are not is delusional

Being transgender is essentially being mentally a different sex. If you're a trans man, you're a man in a women's body, but you're still a man. That's not delusional.

idk what a fujoshi is

It's a slur GC uses for gay trans men.

You can support the oppression of females but not of Jewish people or the disabled...

I do not support the oppression of females. I have been discriminated for being female and Jewish, just not as much as I was discriminated for being disabled. But you will never hear me say women should not be allowed to enter certain professions, or women should be paid less than men, or women should be sexually harassed. I even voted for female presidential candidates.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

There is nothing to prove trans women are men and trams men are women.

We can look at this two ways:

  1. If neither side can be proven, people shouldn’t be fired or ostracized for believing and stating one over the other

  2. There’s ample proof that transwomen are men and transmen are women. Biology. Reproduction. Chromosomes. And so much more. Like... there’s just so much that disproves the idea that TWAW/TMAM

Link to them.

Google is your friend and it’s free, but if you’d like to exchange links, you can link me proof that transwomen are women and I’ll send you just a few of the several links that back up the statement that narcissism is common if not rampant in the trans community.

Being transgender is essentially being mentally a different sex. If you're a trans man, you're a man in a women's body, but you're still a man. That's not delusional.

Sex is not a mental state. if what you’re saying is true, they’d literally be identifying with typical sexual function, or bodies they don’t have, not gendered stereotypes, you haven’t really made a good case for them not being delusional. It’s not mentally sound to identify with a vagina or a penis or with fat distribution, or a set of chromosomes, and since you’ve said they identify with the opposite sex, that’s what you’re saying here. Maybe delusional isn’t the proper word- mental illness of some type surely is.

It's a slur GC uses for gay trans men.

Lesbians? Or straight females who think they’re men and want homosexual men to be with them? I’ll have to look it up because it’s still not too clear to me

I do not support the oppression of females. I have been discriminated for being female and Jewish, just not as much as I was discriminated for being disabled. But you will never hear me say women should not be allowed to enter certain professions, or women should be paid less than men, or women should be sexually harassed. I even voted for female presidential candidates

But you will take away a female’s ability to class herself separate from males? You’ll take away her safe spaces to give them to men who think they’re women? Will you make a female play sports with males because the males claim to be women/girls? Would you give a scholarship intended for females to a male if he identifies as a woman? Will you send male rapists to female prisons because of their sense of identity? Will you vote for a transwomen to be a political representative for females? The scope of oppression of females extends further than what you listed. If you support allowing TW access to female rights and spaces, you support female oppression on some scale. So it sounds to me like you support equal pay and in theory equal opportunity (idk where you fall on giving female specific opportunities to tw), but are more than ready to throw females under the bus when it comes to TW. That’s you supporting males over females. That’s you contributing to misogyny, patriarchy, and female oppression. You can support trans people without throwing females under the bus. By supporting them having human rights and their own spaces and opportunities. Instead, you throw us all under and tell yourself it’s okay because a loud minority of females think like you and will back you up, and the men you support over females show you gratitude.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ETA- as far as the narcissism goes- in addition to looking up the articles, I’d suggest just reading up on narcissism itself, then reading the words of trans people online. Even without the studies, having a basic understanding of narcissism is enough to see it in the trans community. That’s not to say every trans person is a narcissist, I’m saying it’s very common and very evident.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If neither side can be proven, people shouldn’t be fired or ostracized for believing and stating one over the other

Than find a company that welcomes your transphobia.

There’s ample proof that transwomen are men and transmen are women. Biology. Reproduction. Chromosomes. And so much more. Like... there’s just so much that disproves the idea that TWAW/TMAM

But most of us don't define ourselves by our biology and many external sex characteristics like genitalia or appearance can be modified.

Google is your friend and it’s free, but if you’d like to exchange links, you can link me proof that transwomen are women and I’ll send you just a few of the several links that back up the statement that narcissism is common if not rampant in the trans community.

You're the one that claimed that there are multiple studies that trans people are narcissists.

Sex is not a mental state. if what you’re saying is true, they’d literally be identifying with typical sexual function, or bodies they don’t have, not gendered stereotypes, you haven’t really made a good case for them not being delusional. It’s not mentally sound to identify with a vagina or a penis or with fat distribution, or a set of chromosomes, and since you’ve said they identify with the opposite sex, that’s what you’re saying here. Maybe delusional isn’t the proper word- mental illness of some type surely is.

Gender identity is a mental state. Most of us define ourselves by our gender identity. If I was born male, I would feel uncomfortable and want to transition. The only reason I don't is because I was born in the correct body. That doesn't make me delusional.

Lesbians? Or straight females who think they’re men and want homosexual men to be with them? I’ll have to look it up because it’s still not too clear to me

Trans men aren't lesbians. They aren't female either.

But you will take away a female’s ability to class herself separate from males?

I have no issues with GC females classifying themselves as a separate sex.

You’ll take away her safe spaces to give them to men who think they’re women?

Trans women are women, not men who think they're women. Though to answer your question, yes.

Will you make a female play sports with males because the males claim to be women/girls?

I think sports is the only thing that should be sex segregated.

Would you give a scholarship intended for females to a male if he identifies as a woman?

Yes.

Will you send male rapists to female prisons because of their sense of identity?

I would treat male rapists the same as female rapists. Though to be honest I think our prisons need more oversight and there should be stricter security for violent offenders.

Will you vote for a transwomen to be a political representative for females?

That’s you supporting males over females.

Passing trans women are not treated as male and go through the same things cis women go through.

Instead, you throw us all under and tell yourself it’s okay because a loud minority of females think like you and will back you up, and the men you support over females show you gratitude.

If we are a loud minority, why are you complaining about being fired and silenced for expressing GC views? Most women secretly agree with you. Though anyway, women are more likely to be QT than men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Than find a company that welcomes your transphobia.

Lmao it’s not transphobic to speak the truth or to say something that you don’t agree with. You keep throwing out the word transphobia- but you never explain how it’s actually transphobic. It’s not transphobic to disagree with tras and trans people.

But most of us don't define ourselves by our biology and many external sex characteristics like genitalia or appearance can be modified.

Actually “most of us” don’t define ourselves by our “gender identity”. Most of us just understand what our sex is and have no issues. Like 99% of us. And sure genitalia can be modified but a neovagina made out of a penis is not a female sex organ and a neophallus is not a male sex organ so it doesn’t matter what anyone does to their genitals, it doesn’t change sex.

You're the one that claimed that there are multiple studies that trans people are narcissists.

There are. Me telling you to google it doesn’t make that untrue lol

Gender identity is a mental state. Most of us define ourselves by our gender identity. If I was born male, I would feel uncomfortable and want to transition. The only reason I don't is because I was born in the correct body. That doesn't make me delusional.

  1. Duh gender identity is a mental state. SEX is not. You said they identify as a sex, so what does gender identity have to do with it?

  2. Not most of us, less than 2%. Most people don’t define themselves by gender identity and in fact have the term “cis” or sometimes if we protest too much, “agender” forced on us. It’s just not true that most people define themselves with gender identity. You saying that doesn’t make it fact, I really hope you learn that someday soon

  3. Feeling discomfort in your body doesn’t mean you are the opposite sex or were meant to be. It literally means you’re uncomfortable with your body. That’s all it means. Again, you saying things that you believe but can’t back up doesn’t make it fact. It makes it your belief. You literally sound like you’re in a cult- just repeating stuff that you can’t back up

  4. As I said, maybe delusional isn’t the proper word, but thinking you were born in the wrong body and telling yourself that you are the opposite sex/gender because of your personality, preferences and bodily discomfort is indicative of mental illness(es)

Trans men aren't lesbians. They aren't female either.

  1. Some transmen are lesbians. Some are heterosexual or bisexual.

  2. If they weren’t female they wouldn’t be trans and there wouldn’t be stories of transmen getting pregnant that are promoted as men getting pregnant. That whole argument of mEn cAn Get pRegNanT tOo is hinging on transmen but go ahead and make your false statements that you pretend are facts I guess

I have no issues with GC females classifying themselves as a separate sex.

There are GC men and you’re starting to sound like the wrong side of ww2

Trans women are women, not men who think they're women. Though to answer your question, yes.

So yes you support female oppression

I think sports is the only thing that should be sex segregated.

Interesting to find such blatant hypocrisy in your men’s rights activism lol

Would you give a scholarship intended for females to a male if he identifies as a woman? Yes.

Then you support male privilege and females not having equal opportunity

I would treat male rapists the same as female rapists. Though to be honest I think our prisons need more oversight and there should be stricter security for violent offenders.

Female rapists don’t get sent to male prisons FYI, but regardless of what you think about prisons, you seem to be fine with sending intact males to female prisons despite the news showing you that this has lead to rape of females by quite a few of these males. So just because you sent the violent offenders to male prison or whatever you plan to do with them (again, hypocrisy, a violent TW should still be a woman and this allowed in female prisons according to you, so then you’re discriminating if you don’t support male rapists being sent to female prisons. Bad ally).

Passing trans women are not treated as male and go through the same things cis women go through.

  1. Didn’t ask about passing or not
  2. They may go through some of what real women go through
  3. What does it mean to be treated as a male/female?
  4. If they are out as trans I promise you they won’t get treated the same as women, in some situations possibly. But they do and will continue to be treated differently in many ways

If we are a loud minority, why are you complaining about being fired and silenced for expressing GC views? Most women secretly agree with you. Though anyway, women are more likely to be QT than men.

You are a successful loud minority that was smart enough to associate yourselves with more significant and inoffensive causes. T is part of LGB, you lie about suicide and violence, misrepresent facts, hide the truth, and appeal to emotions- you’re a smart and media savvy minority. Most women and men do agree with gc. And sure more women are qt than men (maybe, idk that’s true or if you’re including men as women) but that doesn’t mean more women are qt than aren’t

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Eta- I think you do the classic tra/qt thing of not addressing a lot of things and acting as if your personal views are factual. Idk if you’re just very young or an actual narcissist but I’m convinced it is one of those if not both (I excuse a level of “I I I, me me me” in younger people, but as I said idk your age). you don’t seem to be capable of thinking outside of yourself and your beliefs. I read what MarkTwaniac has been saying and I have to agree. You don’t seem to have a great understanding of what you’re discussing. Be it biology, female oppression, or even qt talking points. You seem to be regurgitating what qt/tras have taught you, without much understanding (which- it’s an illogical and desperate ideology that contradicts itself and is ever evolving to suit their most current desire, so I can’t fault you there). You don’t really address points, and seem unable to explain/elaborate on your own. You just tell people who don’t think like you to find new environments. Like you want to separate everyone who thinks differently, anyone whose beliefs don’t line up with yours, you want to push them away and reclassify them as other than (despite it making no sense since biologically, physiologically, you have more in common with gc females than a TW)- I gotta say, you using being Jewish as a counter argument while you’re arguing to silence and isolate those who don’t practice your beliefs is, well it’s a bit ironic and a lot tone deaf to say the least.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

whole argument of mEn cAn Get pRegNanT tOo

Is meaningless, because no man can get pregnant, only transmen can, and it makes them to be very different from all other men and make them closer with women in this regard. To become a transman one must to be born female, people who were born male can't become transman and can't get pregnant.

So only "men" who were born female and "women" who were born female can possibly gave birth and get pregnant. And same with a lot of other biological, physical and even social facts. This means they all are grouped under "AFAB" for many things, and we again got to defining them by their sex, not by their visual representation of themselves.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would treat male rapists the same as female rapists. Though to be honest I think our prisons need more oversight and there should be stricter security for violent offenders.

There is one "small" difference, men are stronger and can make women pregnant, while women don't.

women are more likely to be QT than men.

This not makes you wonder why there is such an upraise among women to become "he/they" and "anything but woman"?

I think sports is the only thing that should be sex segregated.

Why only sports? Why everywhere else, where sex segregation always mattered - it stopping to matter, while in sport it still matters?

Why someone like Alex Drummond, who saying "I am woman" but leaving beard and looking like a regular man, should have access to female rape shelters or to examine women after rape? Why mental state of women there does not matter? Why sex segregation here should not matter and "gender identity is a mental state" should metter, while mental state of vulnereable women does not?

Most of us define ourselves by our gender identity.

Most of us does not define ourselves by any identity. No one I know ourside of internet, except one transwoman, have any feeling of gender identity and can't understand how you can feel yourself separated from your own body.

Trans women are women, not men who think they're women.

There nothing to prove that transwomen are adult human females.

Gender identity is a mental state.

Why mental state matters more than biological reality?

[–]pollyesther 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Than find a company that welcomes your transphobia.

You act like finding another job is that simple. It's not. Many of us depend on an income to survive, for food, shelter, clothing, health, etc. If you threaten to take those away simply because someone expresses a different belief about gender identity, you are essentially compelling speech for people who can't afford to lose their jobs. I should be allowed to say trans women aren't women on my Facebook page without having to worry about losing my income.

When I was at my college orientation, they told us harassment is prohibited and one of the examples of harassment they gave is not using someone's preferred pronouns. This is CUNY, my cities only public university system with 28 colleges. Eventually I had a professor who decided she was going by they/them pronouns. If I refused, I would be kicked out of college and unable to transfer credits for a year, even though the pronoun thing goes entirely against what I believe in. I could go to a private college and earn new credits, only to learn they have the same pronoun policy because the trans ideology is EVERYWHERE. We don't really have a choice. We want to have a choice. We want people to stop compelling us to play along with the gander ideology, that's all.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There is nothing to prove trans women are men and trams men are women.

That is the only thing that is provable, that they are men biologically and socially. There no way to prove someone's feelings and what they believe, except by asking them, and people can answer anything. And how do they know that what they think women are feel is what women are feel?

trams

Trams are not humans. Funny typo.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Once again: sex is NOT assigned at birth anymore. Assigning sex at birth was a medical malpractice that was done only on intersex people, and it was leading to IGM and early transitioning to an assigned sex with surgeries and hormones.

Long time since this practice is gone, so now no one anymore is assigned at birth and forced to transition.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most of us recognize that gender is different from biological sex. We just don't believe people should be defined by their biology and biology is irrelevant outside of a medical context.

Biological sex is irrelevant in most contexts, but it's still relevant in a number of situations outside a medical context.

For example, toilet facilities in schools, workplaces and the public sphere are designed and outfitted differently because males and females have different urinary anatomy and because whereas males only urinate and defecate in toilets, female people have additional physical needs and processes that we attend to there - menstruation, pregnancy, miscarriage, menopausal flooding, etc. Females can't use urinals, males can. Females need sanitary bins for soiled pads and tampons we use when menstruating, after childbirth and during menopause, males don't.

Generally speaking, females need to use toilets more often than males do due to menstruation, pregnancy, miscarriage, menopause, birth injuries, coz we developed hemmorhoids in pregnancy that nevere went away - and coz due to our different urinary anatomy, females get UTIs much more frequently than males do. Due to birth injuries and hormonal changes of peri menopause and menopause, many women have issues like urinary and fecal incontinence, chronic UTIs, bladder and pelvic organ prolapse...

It typically takes girls and women longer to use the toilet each visit coz we have to partially undress, sit down, wipe after urinating, pull up our drawers and put our clothes back on, sometimes wash off blood from our clothing and hands, etc. Also, coz females tend to wash our hands after using toilet facilities for any reason, whereas males don't.

When using toilets, girls and women are vulnerable in ways that boys and men generally aren't.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/09/20/762764826/how-to-design-a-female-friendly-toilet

Sports is another area outside the medical context where sex really matters a great deal. And not just in sports competition, but in more basic ways like the kit that's issued to the two sexes and the actions that each can and should/n't do. Boys and men doing various sports need jock straps and cups. Girls and women need sports bras and attire cut for female bodies. Females playing soccer need to be careful about using their heads to contact/control the ball coz due to differences in skull anatomy and brain fibers, females have a much higher risk of concussion. Males can train in the exact same way every day of the month, but females need to adjust their activity according to their menstrual cycles and pregnancy status coz changing hormone levels in females mean there are certain times in the month/life that girls and women are much more prone to various injuries coz of such factors as different levels of tension in our ligaments...

Sex matters a whole lot when it comes to PPE and safety equipment, too. Most safety equipment has been designed exclusively to fit male bodies and male faces and heads. Seat belts and air bags were designed, tested, instituted and made mandatory by law without anyone thinking how they would suit female bodies. Seat belts customarily cut into women's breasts and necks, and can't accommodate a heavily pregnant woman's belly.

Airline design is another area where sex matters. The seat belts don't work for pregnant women past a certain stage of pregnancy. The way seats are designed make it impossible for many visibly pregnant women to stand up and exit their own seats if the people in the row ahead have their seats tilted back. The toilets on commercial airplanes are very difficult to use if you're in the sixth month or beyond - especially if you're carrying multiples.

Sex sometimes matters in the workplace too. There are chemicals, conditions and other things (like X-rays) that women who are known to be pregnant or possibly might be pregnant unbeknownst shouldn't be exposed to coz of risk to fetuses. Sometimes this is the case for women who are TTC or breastfeeding, too. The design of machinery, work tools, office furniture, and the standard temperatures that indoor workplaces are kept at are all designed and calibrated for male bodies and male attire only. Also, women who are BFing need a private, sanitary place and work breaks to express milk and store it.

Sex matters when it comes to figuring out life and car insurance rates, as any actuary can tell you.

Sex matters when it comes to policing and prison facilities. Males and females have completely different offending/criminality patterns.

Sex matters when it comes to nutrition and food costs. Food shopping, cooking and budgeting for food costs in a household made up of 5 males and 1 female will be very different than if the numbers were reversed.

Sex matters when it comes to population planning. Women tend to live longer than men, so there needs to be more suitable housing accommodations and senior services for elderly women than for elderly men.

I could go on with many more examples.

Sex is assigned on our birth certificates based on observations.

Sex is determined at conception and develops early on in utero, and it can be ascertained with 100% accuracy in utero - as early as 8/9 weeks with CVS and the NIPT, later through amnio and sonograms.

At or shortly after birth, midwives and physicians observe and record a child's sex on medical records. In most countries and US states, births must be registered with the appropriate government body within a certain time frame following a birth - in most US states, within a week or less. In England, Wales & NI, parents have 42 days to register a birth; in Scotland, it's 21 days. But only after a birth is registered with a government does the government issue a birth certificate.

However, not everyone in the world has been issued a birth certificate. And for many who do have BCs, there is a huge gap between the time of birth and when a BC is issued. For example, Caster Semenya wasn't issued a BC until Semenya was 16.

I hope your throat is better. When you're up to it, I hope you do some research into the areas you keep spouting strong opinions about coz you're coming off as very poorly informed about the actual facts and complexities.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Assigning sex at birth was medical malpractice used only against intersex people, when VSD conditions were poorly studied and doctorst were lazy - and it almost always led to IGM. It happened only with conditions with ambigious genitals, or in 0.05% cases. In the rest of 99.95% of cases -sex is observed months before birth.

Nowadays assigning at birth is no longer practiced anymore, and gladly so.

banning hate speech

Being homosexual is not a hate speech.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Where did I say being homosexual is hate speech?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I asked BabyCenter and DC Urban Mom. BabyCenter is a TRA site. As far as I know, GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces.

Maybe you should broaden your perspective and do your "polling" not online but in person at churches, mosques, synagogues, senior centers, nursing homes, NFL and NBA games, workplaces, gyms, swimming pools, rec centers, maternity wards, department store changing rooms, sororities, fraternities and so on.

When you do, be sure to ask fathers, mothers and grandparents of girls how they feel about their small daughters or granddaughters having to use restrooms in the company of grown men and teenage boys with their dicks out, and whether they think their pubescent and teenage daughters should be forced to undress in front of boys and men who'll be eyeing or staring at the girls with lust as they lick and smack their lips and make lewd comments. Be sure to ask some visibly pregnant women if they want to have to disrobe and express breast milk in front of men as well.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I was responding to your fatuous claim that based on the polling you say you've done on two web forums - one which you admit is TRA site, and the other is a forum for parents in Washington, DC USA - you can pronounce for with total assurance that

GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces

In the whole wide world. I was suggesting that by focusing your "polling" on such a small, narrow group you were missing a lot of the earth's human population.

But rather than address my point, you respond by saying only

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

Which just goes to show that you seem to think this is all about you, and only you. That you and your wants and the wants of other trans-identified people are all that matters.

Also, the central issue concerning single sex spaces is far less about about female people using men's spaces than male people using female spaces. Female people in male spaces and sports don't pose a threat to the males there. But male people in female spaces and sports do indeed pose a great many threats to the girls and women who need our own spaces and sports and have put a great deal of effort into creating and campaigning for them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

I am all for all placee being unisex (except sports) but I'm not opposed to females creating their own spaces. Open up your own park with segregated bathrooms. Open up your schools and gyms. Just don't expect any government funding. By the way, I'm not trans. I'm a cis woman.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Unixes spaces are creating huge problems and are dangerous for women. In Africa because of unisex toilets, teen girls are not coming to school during menstruation, and getting behind, for example. In western world at least third of rapes by strangers are happening in public multi-cab unisex toilets as well. Public locker rooms and dressing rooms unisex are complete nonsense as well. In majority of cases unisex spaces are unconvinient or harmful for women. And because you are fine with them (I suppose you almost never using those?) - does not mean that majority of women would be fine with this and that it will help women at all.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Girls in africa miss school because they are humiliated for having a period, and there is lack of access to menstrual products like pads or cups or even a lack of bathrooms. One 14 year old girl took her own life after being humiliated by a teacher after having her period and staining her uniform.

Kenyan schoolgirl takes her own life after 'period shaming'

Globally, periods are causing girls to be absent from school

Why Periods Are Keeping Girls Out of School & How You Can Help

This has nothing to do with unisex bathrooms, which I have been using for years without a problem. If someone is harassing someone else, it's their behavior that is a problem, not their presence. Though I do recall an incident in high school where I was harassed by fellow cis girls in the locker room. That's OK apparently, because we're all females.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Previously you said

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

Now you say

This has nothing to do with unisex bathrooms, which I have been using for years without a problem.

So which is it? Is it "men's rooms" or "unisex bathrooms" which you've been using "since I was a teenager/for years"? Also, exactly how long a period are you speaking of? It's not at all clear whether you were a teenager two or 20 years ago.

The larger point is that the issues being discussed on this thread are not about you and what you as a lone individual have a problem with or have personally experienced.

I do recall an incident in high school where I was harassed by fellow cis girls in the locker room. That's OK apparently, because we're all females.

Again, this is not about you - it's about the nearly 8 billion human inhabitants of planet earth.

Also, no one here has said any kind of harassment is OK. Girls and women are perfectly capable of being unkind, cruel and/or abusive to others of the opposite and our own sex.

But just coz girls and women can be guilty of harassment and bullying doesn't mean we should get rid of all safeguards put in place to protect female people from predation, abuse, intimidation, harassment, menacing, stalking and assault by members of the opposite sex.

Finally, for the record, during childhood and adolescence pretty much everyone gets harassed, bullied, picked on, razzed at some point, or frequently. Even the "cis" girls and "cool kids." This can be deeply unpleasant to go through, but it's closer to a universal human experience than one unique to you.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I've been using both men's and unisex restrooms without a problem.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

it's their behavior that is a problem, not their presence.

If it was so easy to fix men's behaviour, rape and trafficing cases would be almost non existent, and sex segregation with safe spaces would not be needed.

Men, especially young boys, often do not understand what is menstruation. Menstruation talks is still taboo even in the western world, where advertisement can be removed from TV, because "it is gross" or "explanation of putting tampon inside looks too sexual". In other countries menstruation is considered "dirty" and in some religions women during menstruation has less rights and are not allowed to do some activities. In some countries there are menstruation huts because of how it seen.

Girl may have her first menstruation, is confused and ashamed about her body acting this strange - and then boys, who never could even remotely understand how it feels "will be boys" and even lighthearted joke can hurt that girl.

In unisex spaces in Korea there is huge problem with spy-cams and holes in toilets to "look through". It happens in women's toilets too there, thought, but on a lesser scale than in unisex toilets.

And so on.

I am both hands up on fixing such men's behaviour, on rapists dissapearing and rapes not happenign anymore, on destigmatizing menstruation, on providing sanitary products to women in need. And until this all is not fixed - we do need segregated and safe spaces for women. And even after we still will need some women spaces just for comfort, as our needs with men are a bit different, and sometimes women just want to be away from men in a world made for men.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Bathrooms are separated by stalls. I think we should eliminate gaps in the stalls but that's another issue. But it shouldn't matter who is in the next stall, as long as they are minding their own business. But segregated spaces is not the answer.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not opposed to females creating their own spaces. Open up your own park with segregated bathrooms. Open up your schools and gyms. Just don't expect any government funding. By the way, I'm not trans. I'm a cis woman.

Sorry I got your sex wrong. I thought earlier you said you used male toilet facilities outside the home, and everything you say sounds like it came straight out of the big book of trans clichés and propaganda, so I got confused. My bad.

Sex-separated facilities for toileting, changing, showering, getting & giving, certain types of medical care, healing from sexual trauma like rape, escaping from domestic violence, expressing breast milk and so on are legal in the country I'm a citizen of - the US - and in the other country where prior to COVID I was spending a lot of time, the UK.

I am old enough to remember when girls and women had no sports or locker rooms in schools in the US, and in many places didn't have PE either - and we had to campaign for them, then build our sports programs from scratch. When I was in college, when we women finally got our own locker room in the athletic center at my previously male-only uni, it turned out not to have any lockable lockers, which meant we couldn't leave our belongings in there safely when at the athletic center - and we had to lug around all our kit and sports equipment back and forth from our dorms or apartments each and every day. So we had to beg and plead and raise money for lockers. When we finally got lockers, the next thing that happened was that the water in the locker room was mysteriously always turned off - so we couldn't shower, wash or hands or use the toilets. Then when the mysterious "plumbing problems" were solved, the toilets were always clogged and overflowing and every day the floors were flooded...

You seem to think girls and women were handed own locker rooms, toilets and sports on a silver platter, and that now we all should be forced to give them up. Coz after 40+ years of fair(ish) play for girls and women, you've decided "time's up - that's enough." You may be a woman, but you sure sound like one who also hates others of your sex and is entirely ignorant of what previous generations of women went through to win the right for the spaces and provisions you want to remove.

I was also involved in creating shelters for battered women in the 1970s and 80s, as well as services for female victims of rape and other forms of male sexual violence, and support groups for women dealing with issues affecting us as females, like birth injuries, miscarriage and menopause. We women did this all on our time and on our own, using our own money or funds we privately raised through donations. Only much later did any such facilities and programs get any government funding.

BTW, although it seems you think you are the boss of the world and what you decree goes, in fact you are not the government of the US or any US state or municipality or any other country. Your word and wish isn't the law. And you don't control the public purse.

Also, since you seem to think that US federal, state and local taxpayer funds are yours and yours alone to dole out or withhold, I'm very curious as to how many years you've been paying income and other taxes such as property and investment-related taxes - and how much you've paid in total taxes exclusive of sales and luxury taxes over your career/lifetime. I also wonder if you've ever served on a jury, a government board, a budget committee, in the military, or done any other civic duty/public service like serving as a volunteer at a food bank, fire department or EMS, crisis hotline, homeless shelter, hospice, home for the disabled, literacy program, school, public library, charity and so on.

I wonder this coz IME, people who've been paying income and other "grown up" taxes for the bulk of their lives and who've been involved in the democratic process and have a history of personally contributing to civic and community life in meaningful ways tend not to talk the way you do. They tend to be aware that in a society such as the ones that countries like the US and UK aim to be, the rights and needs of all citizens and residents need to be considered, not just their own. And they tend to believe that public funds are for the public and should be distributed to serve everyone's interests, not just to their own small "in" group for the purpose of fulfilling their own narrow agenda and meeting their own needs exclusively.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

The issue was that bathrooms and locker rooms were male only, so women demanded their own separate facilities. I have no issue with desegregating facilities.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I have no issue with desegregating facilities.

Yeah, we know you have no issue with this. You've made it clear throughout this thread that you think you and people who share your identical mindset are the only persons who count. You've repeatedly referred to persons with views different to yours as "bigots" and have called for them/us to be treated as less worthy than you. You've also made it clear that your sole point of reference is your own personal experience.

Other quotes of yours just from the tail end of this thread that show you think you are the only person who matters and also are an authoritarian who is entirely unaware - or just couldn't care less - that other people have life experience and needs different to your own. Your lack of empathy is so total you really seem to believe you have the right to trample over, ostracize, punish and exclude from society those whose experiences and POVs diverge from yours:

I am all for all placee being unisex

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

Open up your own park with segregated bathrooms. Open up your schools and gyms. Just don't expect any government funding.

I understand basic biology. That doesn't mean you can say what you want without repercussions.

Also, I don't think you understand basic biology at all.