QT: A question of ideology

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I was responding to your fatuous claim that based on the polling you say you've done on two web forums - one which you admit is TRA site, and the other is a forum for parents in Washington, DC USA - you can pronounce for with total assurance that

GC is the only group requesting sex-segregared spaces

In the whole wide world. I was suggesting that by focusing your "polling" on such a small, narrow group you were missing a lot of the earth's human population.

But rather than address my point, you respond by saying only

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

Which just goes to show that you seem to think this is all about you, and only you. That you and your wants and the wants of other trans-identified people are all that matters.

Also, the central issue concerning single sex spaces is far less about about female people using men's spaces than male people using female spaces. Female people in male spaces and sports don't pose a threat to the males there. But male people in female spaces and sports do indeed pose a great many threats to the girls and women who need our own spaces and sports and have put a great deal of effort into creating and campaigning for them.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

I am all for all placee being unisex (except sports) but I'm not opposed to females creating their own spaces. Open up your own park with segregated bathrooms. Open up your schools and gyms. Just don't expect any government funding. By the way, I'm not trans. I'm a cis woman.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Unixes spaces are creating huge problems and are dangerous for women. In Africa because of unisex toilets, teen girls are not coming to school during menstruation, and getting behind, for example. In western world at least third of rapes by strangers are happening in public multi-cab unisex toilets as well. Public locker rooms and dressing rooms unisex are complete nonsense as well. In majority of cases unisex spaces are unconvinient or harmful for women. And because you are fine with them (I suppose you almost never using those?) - does not mean that majority of women would be fine with this and that it will help women at all.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Girls in africa miss school because they are humiliated for having a period, and there is lack of access to menstrual products like pads or cups or even a lack of bathrooms. One 14 year old girl took her own life after being humiliated by a teacher after having her period and staining her uniform.

Kenyan schoolgirl takes her own life after 'period shaming'

Globally, periods are causing girls to be absent from school

Why Periods Are Keeping Girls Out of School & How You Can Help

This has nothing to do with unisex bathrooms, which I have been using for years without a problem. If someone is harassing someone else, it's their behavior that is a problem, not their presence. Though I do recall an incident in high school where I was harassed by fellow cis girls in the locker room. That's OK apparently, because we're all females.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Previously you said

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

Now you say

This has nothing to do with unisex bathrooms, which I have been using for years without a problem.

So which is it? Is it "men's rooms" or "unisex bathrooms" which you've been using "since I was a teenager/for years"? Also, exactly how long a period are you speaking of? It's not at all clear whether you were a teenager two or 20 years ago.

The larger point is that the issues being discussed on this thread are not about you and what you as a lone individual have a problem with or have personally experienced.

I do recall an incident in high school where I was harassed by fellow cis girls in the locker room. That's OK apparently, because we're all females.

Again, this is not about you - it's about the nearly 8 billion human inhabitants of planet earth.

Also, no one here has said any kind of harassment is OK. Girls and women are perfectly capable of being unkind, cruel and/or abusive to others of the opposite and our own sex.

But just coz girls and women can be guilty of harassment and bullying doesn't mean we should get rid of all safeguards put in place to protect female people from predation, abuse, intimidation, harassment, menacing, stalking and assault by members of the opposite sex.

Finally, for the record, during childhood and adolescence pretty much everyone gets harassed, bullied, picked on, razzed at some point, or frequently. Even the "cis" girls and "cool kids." This can be deeply unpleasant to go through, but it's closer to a universal human experience than one unique to you.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I've been using both men's and unisex restrooms without a problem.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

it's their behavior that is a problem, not their presence.

If it was so easy to fix men's behaviour, rape and trafficing cases would be almost non existent, and sex segregation with safe spaces would not be needed.

Men, especially young boys, often do not understand what is menstruation. Menstruation talks is still taboo even in the western world, where advertisement can be removed from TV, because "it is gross" or "explanation of putting tampon inside looks too sexual". In other countries menstruation is considered "dirty" and in some religions women during menstruation has less rights and are not allowed to do some activities. In some countries there are menstruation huts because of how it seen.

Girl may have her first menstruation, is confused and ashamed about her body acting this strange - and then boys, who never could even remotely understand how it feels "will be boys" and even lighthearted joke can hurt that girl.

In unisex spaces in Korea there is huge problem with spy-cams and holes in toilets to "look through". It happens in women's toilets too there, thought, but on a lesser scale than in unisex toilets.

And so on.

I am both hands up on fixing such men's behaviour, on rapists dissapearing and rapes not happenign anymore, on destigmatizing menstruation, on providing sanitary products to women in need. And until this all is not fixed - we do need segregated and safe spaces for women. And even after we still will need some women spaces just for comfort, as our needs with men are a bit different, and sometimes women just want to be away from men in a world made for men.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Bathrooms are separated by stalls. I think we should eliminate gaps in the stalls but that's another issue. But it shouldn't matter who is in the next stall, as long as they are minding their own business. But segregated spaces is not the answer.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But segregated spaces is not the answer.

Why? It greatly decreased rape cases, it greatly decreased stress among teen girls, it greatly increased visits of toilets and bathrooms by females (as with unisex ones, a lot of teen girls and often adult human females were just going toilet or changing clothings only at home, and then bearing it up on lessons or work, and going toilet again only at home after work). So it works and gives big advantage. What does removing segregation will achieve? All the progress will be just reversed, rape cases would raise up, visiting of those spaces by females will drop down, stress of females in those places will raise up again. I see no reason of removing segregation, and I can't understand how it can help women at all. It may help small percentage of males (and will make everything easier to predators as well), thought, and that's it. Even men would feel more uncomfortable like that - in my school and first job we had unisex bathroom and unisex changing room. Most boys and men were prefering to NOT use them together with girls or women, we were going in two different groups, boys at first, as they need much less time, and then group of girls. But it only work if going in groups, thought. Changing it from unisex to segregated spaces, trippled the effectiveness of them, and make it more comfortable and easy for everyone, plus you could just go solo and be fine. So what the point of removing segregation, if it helps to females A LOT and helps males a bit?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not opposed to females creating their own spaces. Open up your own park with segregated bathrooms. Open up your schools and gyms. Just don't expect any government funding. By the way, I'm not trans. I'm a cis woman.

Sorry I got your sex wrong. I thought earlier you said you used male toilet facilities outside the home, and everything you say sounds like it came straight out of the big book of trans clichés and propaganda, so I got confused. My bad.

Sex-separated facilities for toileting, changing, showering, getting & giving, certain types of medical care, healing from sexual trauma like rape, escaping from domestic violence, expressing breast milk and so on are legal in the country I'm a citizen of - the US - and in the other country where prior to COVID I was spending a lot of time, the UK.

I am old enough to remember when girls and women had no sports or locker rooms in schools in the US, and in many places didn't have PE either - and we had to campaign for them, then build our sports programs from scratch. When I was in college, when we women finally got our own locker room in the athletic center at my previously male-only uni, it turned out not to have any lockable lockers, which meant we couldn't leave our belongings in there safely when at the athletic center - and we had to lug around all our kit and sports equipment back and forth from our dorms or apartments each and every day. So we had to beg and plead and raise money for lockers. When we finally got lockers, the next thing that happened was that the water in the locker room was mysteriously always turned off - so we couldn't shower, wash or hands or use the toilets. Then when the mysterious "plumbing problems" were solved, the toilets were always clogged and overflowing and every day the floors were flooded...

You seem to think girls and women were handed own locker rooms, toilets and sports on a silver platter, and that now we all should be forced to give them up. Coz after 40+ years of fair(ish) play for girls and women, you've decided "time's up - that's enough." You may be a woman, but you sure sound like one who also hates others of your sex and is entirely ignorant of what previous generations of women went through to win the right for the spaces and provisions you want to remove.

I was also involved in creating shelters for battered women in the 1970s and 80s, as well as services for female victims of rape and other forms of male sexual violence, and support groups for women dealing with issues affecting us as females, like birth injuries, miscarriage and menopause. We women did this all on our time and on our own, using our own money or funds we privately raised through donations. Only much later did any such facilities and programs get any government funding.

BTW, although it seems you think you are the boss of the world and what you decree goes, in fact you are not the government of the US or any US state or municipality or any other country. Your word and wish isn't the law. And you don't control the public purse.

Also, since you seem to think that US federal, state and local taxpayer funds are yours and yours alone to dole out or withhold, I'm very curious as to how many years you've been paying income and other taxes such as property and investment-related taxes - and how much you've paid in total taxes exclusive of sales and luxury taxes over your career/lifetime. I also wonder if you've ever served on a jury, a government board, a budget committee, in the military, or done any other civic duty/public service like serving as a volunteer at a food bank, fire department or EMS, crisis hotline, homeless shelter, hospice, home for the disabled, literacy program, school, public library, charity and so on.

I wonder this coz IME, people who've been paying income and other "grown up" taxes for the bulk of their lives and who've been involved in the democratic process and have a history of personally contributing to civic and community life in meaningful ways tend not to talk the way you do. They tend to be aware that in a society such as the ones that countries like the US and UK aim to be, the rights and needs of all citizens and residents need to be considered, not just their own. And they tend to believe that public funds are for the public and should be distributed to serve everyone's interests, not just to their own small "in" group for the purpose of fulfilling their own narrow agenda and meeting their own needs exclusively.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

The issue was that bathrooms and locker rooms were male only, so women demanded their own separate facilities. I have no issue with desegregating facilities.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I have no issue with desegregating facilities.

Yeah, we know you have no issue with this. You've made it clear throughout this thread that you think you and people who share your identical mindset are the only persons who count. You've repeatedly referred to persons with views different to yours as "bigots" and have called for them/us to be treated as less worthy than you. You've also made it clear that your sole point of reference is your own personal experience.

Other quotes of yours just from the tail end of this thread that show you think you are the only person who matters and also are an authoritarian who is entirely unaware - or just couldn't care less - that other people have life experience and needs different to your own. Your lack of empathy is so total you really seem to believe you have the right to trample over, ostracize, punish and exclude from society those whose experiences and POVs diverge from yours:

I am all for all placee being unisex

I've been using men's rooms since I was a teenager and never had a problem.

Open up your own park with segregated bathrooms. Open up your schools and gyms. Just don't expect any government funding.

I understand basic biology. That doesn't mean you can say what you want without repercussions.

Also, I don't think you understand basic biology at all.