Both: what is the source/origin of the claim "trans-womxyn are women"? The DSM-5/icd-11 don't make the claim, I can't find it anywhere within sociology or psychology, not even within queer theory. Is it just a hashtag?

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Why are you so sure that they aren't men? You must have a reason. What source are you drawing from when you say that trans-womxyn aren't men?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Because we treat “man” as having a social component. We tell someone to “be a man” and it implies a behavioral command. Common usage includes a behavioral component. Male has no such implication.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But where is this elusive definition you keep eluding to? The "social component" of 'man' is called masculinity, or a masculine gender role. You keep saying "definitional" while stressing connotation. The connotation of the word 'man' is: one with a masculine identity. The denotation of 'man' is adult, human & male – that's what 'man' is "definitionally".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Man implies behavior in common use. When it comes to language common use is more important that a dictionary definition because common use is what it’s actually communicating. Saying “be a man” doesn’t communicate “ be an adult human male” it’s a command to adopt a set of behavior patterns.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

We've been over this. You're talking about connotation again. Denotation > connotation.

Femboys manage just fine being exactly like trans-womxyn, except in the way they identify. Stereotypes aren't definitions. Men don't stop being men by virtue of not adhering to the stereotypical masculine role of a normative man.

Men who are identical to trans-womxyn in every substantial way are men, so what is is about trans-womxyn that makes them "not men"?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am very "feminine" looking gay man, with very "feminine" facial features. And during hot weather I prefer wearing dress-like cloths like roman toga. However, very often I can't, as there is stigma about feminine men (mostly come from homophobia, as society in place where I live is not healed from homophobia being outlawed previously) and such clothing.

And I am a man.

Better question was one here previously - when transwoman is coming to Oceania or some Indian places, where men are wearing dresses and make-up, but women are not allowed to, or allowed but very limitedly, - then what? Transwoman will look exactly as men there, and "feminine" traits and looks of transwoman will be considered as "masculine" ones in that place. Will transwoman stop being woman and became a man there? And how to spot difference? I think this question was never answered, but repeated few times by person asking it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You’re just ignoring physical transition here. Femboys aren’t just the same except identity.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You haven't visited r/femboys then. There are those who medically transition to a point (normally to the same point that most trans-womxyn do too). There is even some overlap, with members of that sub regularly coming out as trans.

In the cases of femboys & trans-womxyn who identify as men, what's the difference between them & trans-womxyn who identify as women? Ideology is the only difference (& theirs is not the view that is ideological, it's biological & sociological fact).

So what is it about trans-womxyn that makes them "not men"?

EDIT: I meant r/feminineboys, r/femboys is just porn.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Their bodies, their identities, the way the Interact with the world and are acted on in the world. Literally everything about them.

As I’ve said many times. Argue we are some third category if you care to but we are not men.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But "literally everything about them" is shared by people that even you regard as men, including some trans-womxyn, like Debbie Hayton. There is no reason to distinguish between trans-womxyn who you disagree with from trans-womxyn who share your ideology.

When are you going to argue that trans-womxyn you disagree with are a third category rather than men? If a trans-woman's sex is not a third category, then what on earth would be the justification be to place them in a third category?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But "literally everything about them" is shared by people that even you regard as men, including some trans-womxyn, like Debbie Hayton. There is no reason to distinguish between trans-womxyn who you disagree with from trans-womxyn who share your ideology.

Dysphoria. If you call yourself a man you can’t be dysphoric. So you aren’t trans.

I’m open to the possibility of third category if accompanied with massive social change. But trans women who disagree with me are either trans or not. Are they disphoric or not? I’m not arguing for a third category.

If a trans-woman's sex is not a third category, then what on earth would be the justification be to place them in a third category?

I don’t understand what you are asking here.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It’s a semantic question. Source is irrelevant. Why do I know it’s wrong to hurt people? Why do I know that the moon is pretty? I know and quibbling over definitions won’t change it.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If the source is irrelevant then the source's definition is irrelevant. You compared it to the moon being pretty – if it's as irrelevant as that then why deny so vehemently that trans-womxyn are men? Trans-womxyn being men is comparable to the moon being a natural satellite, not being pretty.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

How can the feral child be a "cis" woman despite lacking a "gender identity"? Do only trans people have "gender identities"?

Believing the moon isn’t pretty doesn’t get us killed or fired.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Well? Do they, or don't they? If this is life or death like you seem to suggest then, then this non-existent definition from this non-existent source is pretty important. How murderers of feminine men are stopped in their tracks by renaming their potential victims male women is beyond me.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Do they or don’t they what? What does that have to do with the moon?

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do feral children have a gender identity or not? And how are murderers of feminine men deterred by renaming their potential victims male women?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do feral children have a gender identity or not?

Trans ones do.

And how are murderers of feminine men deterred by renaming their potential victims male women?

Because they don’t want to kill feminine men who behave. They want to kill decievers who overstep their station.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Believing that Earth is not center of universe could, tho.