Both: what is the source/origin of the claim "trans-womxyn are women"? The DSM-5/icd-11 don't make the claim, I can't find it anywhere within sociology or psychology, not even within queer theory. Is it just a hashtag?

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (22 children)

lol all men need to be protected from men. Does that make them women? Given that male socialisation is *invariably homophobic, do you then accept that gay men need to be protected from men?

What form should this "protection" take? Chanting "gay men are women" & advocating for their inclusion in women's sports, prisons, medicine, shelters etc?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

lol all men need to be protected from men. Does that make them women?

Trans women aren’t men but yes, straight cis men are brutal animals who can’t be trusted.

Given that male socialisation is *invariably homophobic, do you then accept that gay men need to be protected from men?

Yes.

What form should this "protection" take? Chanting "gay men are women" & advocating for their inclusion in women's sports, prisons, medicine, shelters etc?

Protective rights. Protective housing in prison. Dedicated medical and community resources.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (20 children)

Trans women aren’t men

Citation needed.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

It’s a semantic question. You can’t just cite to a study. It’s definitional.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Why are you so sure that they aren't men? You must have a reason. What source are you drawing from when you say that trans-womxyn aren't men?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Because we treat “man” as having a social component. We tell someone to “be a man” and it implies a behavioral command. Common usage includes a behavioral component. Male has no such implication.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

But where is this elusive definition you keep eluding to? The "social component" of 'man' is called masculinity, or a masculine gender role. You keep saying "definitional" while stressing connotation. The connotation of the word 'man' is: one with a masculine identity. The denotation of 'man' is adult, human & male – that's what 'man' is "definitionally".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Man implies behavior in common use. When it comes to language common use is more important that a dictionary definition because common use is what it’s actually communicating. Saying “be a man” doesn’t communicate “ be an adult human male” it’s a command to adopt a set of behavior patterns.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

We've been over this. You're talking about connotation again. Denotation > connotation.

Femboys manage just fine being exactly like trans-womxyn, except in the way they identify. Stereotypes aren't definitions. Men don't stop being men by virtue of not adhering to the stereotypical masculine role of a normative man.

Men who are identical to trans-womxyn in every substantial way are men, so what is is about trans-womxyn that makes them "not men"?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am very "feminine" looking gay man, with very "feminine" facial features. And during hot weather I prefer wearing dress-like cloths like roman toga. However, very often I can't, as there is stigma about feminine men (mostly come from homophobia, as society in place where I live is not healed from homophobia being outlawed previously) and such clothing.

And I am a man.

Better question was one here previously - when transwoman is coming to Oceania or some Indian places, where men are wearing dresses and make-up, but women are not allowed to, or allowed but very limitedly, - then what? Transwoman will look exactly as men there, and "feminine" traits and looks of transwoman will be considered as "masculine" ones in that place. Will transwoman stop being woman and became a man there? And how to spot difference? I think this question was never answered, but repeated few times by person asking it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

You’re just ignoring physical transition here. Femboys aren’t just the same except identity.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It’s a semantic question. Source is irrelevant. Why do I know it’s wrong to hurt people? Why do I know that the moon is pretty? I know and quibbling over definitions won’t change it.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If the source is irrelevant then the source's definition is irrelevant. You compared it to the moon being pretty – if it's as irrelevant as that then why deny so vehemently that trans-womxyn are men? Trans-womxyn being men is comparable to the moon being a natural satellite, not being pretty.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

How can the feral child be a "cis" woman despite lacking a "gender identity"? Do only trans people have "gender identities"?

Believing the moon isn’t pretty doesn’t get us killed or fired.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Well? Do they, or don't they? If this is life or death like you seem to suggest then, then this non-existent definition from this non-existent source is pretty important. How murderers of feminine men are stopped in their tracks by renaming their potential victims male women is beyond me.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Do they or don’t they what? What does that have to do with the moon?

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Believing that Earth is not center of universe could, tho.