Both: what is the source/origin of the claim "trans-womxyn are women"? The DSM-5/icd-11 don't make the claim, I can't find it anywhere within sociology or psychology, not even within queer theory. Is it just a hashtag?

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

It’s for transphobes who can’t even bring themselves to say trans women or even transwomen.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

I'll call them 'dysphoric men' if you'd prefer it. "Men with a feminine gender role preference" would be the most accurate, though unwieldy.

You've made the accusation that I'm transphobic for merely implying that trans-womxyn are male. The prefix 'trans' does the same thing, as does the statement "sex & gender aren't the same thing".

There are trans-womxyn who say that trans-womxyn are men, others say that they are women. How is the former statement transphobic, but not the latter?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Saying trans women are men is transphobic. Dress it up however you want but it’s that simple.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

That's it? This is a debate sub FYI.

When are you going to finally explain what makes such a benign statement of fact transphobic? Oh that's right, never. No one seems to want answer that question. It's almost as if there is no answer to that question. You do know that trans-womxyn in every culture around the world (that includes cultures more accepting than ours) & throughout history categorise trans-womxyn as either men or third gender, right? Your insular ideology is an exception.

Saying trans-womxyn are women is misogynistic. Why: it's the erasure of women. No one who chants the aforementioned can define 'woman', thereby proving said erasure. The female sex is not a privileged class, but the "cis vs. trans" dynamic sets members of the females sex up as privileged oppressors.

There is also no evidence that trans-womxyn are women, while there is plenty of evidence that they are men: male sex, male socialisation, male privilege. Yours is an ideology of gaps.

The funny thing about this ridiculous idea that the mere implication that trans-womxyn are male is transphobic, is that every TRA must regard themselves as transphobic by their own standards. If you thought trans-womxyn were women you could easily prove it. But you can't, not even to yourself.

Why do trans-womxyn spend so much time training themselves to emulate women? Take trans-women's voices. That's not their genuine voice, it's the voice of a man trying to sound like a woman. That's the opposite of "being your true self".

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

It’s prima fascia transphobic. It’s the nature of transphobia.

I don’t actually care about third gender classification as long as it’s not lesser. But calling us men is definitionally transphobic. It’s the core root of all transphobia.

The funny thing about this ridiculous idea that the mere implication that trans-womxyn are male is transphobic, is that every TRA must regard themselves as transphobic by their own standards. If you thought trans-womxyn were women you could easily prove it. But you can't, not even to yourself.

That is both untrue and doesn’t follow the argument. Belief doesn’t require proof to exist anyway. I am male but not a man. And that doesn’t require proof because I know it. It’s a semantic question, “proof” isn’t relevant. It’s a language issue.

Why do trans-womxyn spend so much time training themselves to emulate women? Take trans-women's voices. That's not their genuine voice, it's the voice of a man trying to sound like a woman. That's the opposite of "being your true self".

Many reasons. Safety, passing, because masculine voices are grating and disgusting, because hearing those sounds is distressing or induces disassociation, because they simply prefer it, because it feels like how they ought to be. Take your pick.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I am male but not a man.

"Saying trans-womxyn are male is the core root of transphobia" – there, do I win?

The differences between a trans-woman & a man are only in the imagination of the individual. What's the difference between trans-womxyn who say they are women & trans-womxyn who say they are men? Ideology is the only difference. Meanwhile there isn't any overlap between trans-womxyn & women, other than everything that men & women have in common.

After a female infant, that was brought up by wolves, identifies as a wolf & has no concept of gender, finally grows up, she is a woman, not a wolf, because 'woman' is just the word for a human who is an adult & female.

You can't prove that trans-womxyn are women, so you say it's transphobic to say otherwise, but you also can't prove that that's transphobic so why on earth should I believe two impossible things with nothing to back either up (other than the vague "but it's the core root though")?

The reason the other side isn't saying that it's transphobic to call trans-womxyn women is because they have evidence on their side. It's from your lack of evidence that you have to lean so heavily on the "transphobia!" crutch.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[M] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't mean to make it personal, but you're not a woman.

I’m not removing this, but I just want to point out that you cannot misgender individual users. You can misgender groups of trans people or publicly known trans people who aren’t present, but please refrain from singling out individual users.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I understand. I removed that sentence, if that's okay.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[M] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks!

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

"Saying trans-womxyn are male is the core root of transphobia" – there, do I win?

That’s not true though. I acknowledge that I am male but am not transphobic. Male is a question of genetics. Man isn’t. One can think trans women have xy chromosomes without requiring or impacting behavior. Thinking we are men brings implications necessary to transphobia.

After a female infant, that was brought up by wolves, identifies as a wolf & has no concept of gender, finally grows up, she is a woman

Assuming she isn’t trans I agree

woman' is just the word for a human who is an adult & female.

I and may wouldn’t agree with that oversimplified definition.

You can't prove that trans-womxyn are women,

You can’t prove we are men. It’s a question of semantics not proof.

you also can't prove that that's transphobic

Semantic question of definition not a question of proof . But to belabor, all transphobic action is predicated on the idea that trans women are men. No transphobic action is taken by anyone who believes trans women are not men. The idea that we are men and therefore deluded or sinister infiltrators is the predicate on all transphobic actions. A man kills a trans woman because he thinks she is a man and either has failed masculinity or affronted his masculinity by eliciting attraction. Belief she is a man is the predicate. The same is true for discrimination in employment, legal discrimination. All transphobic action roots in thinking trans people are their birth sex rather than their actual gender.

The reason the other side isn't saying that it's transphobic to call trans-womxyn women is because they have evidence on their side.

Why would calling trans women women be transphobic? That seems like a typo.

It's from your lack of evidence that you have to lean so heavily on the "transphobia!" crutch.

It’s your obvious hatred for trans people that leads me to call you transphobic.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

'Man' is as much based on genetics as 'ram' or 'bull' are. They are all male, but there is a separate word for the male of each of their species. 'Male', in regard to humans, has all the same connotations that 'man' does. 'Male' is the adjective of 'man'. One can just as easily think trans-womxyn are men without requiring or impacting behaviour. Conversely, it's just as possible that viewing trans-womxyn as male "brings implications necessary to transphobia".

Just because in English people can't identify as a masculinity, or a femininity, doesn't mean you can appropriate the words 'man' & 'woman'. Masculinity & femininity are gender, man & woman aren't, they merely connote normative gender roles.

So if a feral child is socialised as a wolf & identifies as neither a man nor a woman but instead as a wolf, she is not a wolf, but a woman, but were she to identify not as a man, nor a woman, nor a wolf, she'd be non-binary?

I and may wouldn’t agree with that oversimplified definition.

What definition would you agree with then? Does said definition have a source?

You can’t prove we are men

Adult, human & male – checks out for both men & trans-womxyn.

Also, the universals of men: male sex, male socialisation (& subsequent male behavioural patters) & male privilege, are all shared by trans-womxyn. While the universals of women: female sex, female socialisation (& subsequent female behavioural patterns) & misogyny, are not shared by trans-womxyn.

All transphobic action is predicated on the idea that trans-womxyn are male. No transphobic action is taken by anyone who believes trans-womxyn are not male. The idea that trans-womxyn are male & therefore deluded or sinister infiltrators is the predicate on all transphobic actions. A man kills a trans-woman because he thinks she is male & either has failed masculinity or affronted his own masculinity by eliciting his attraction. Belief she is male is the predicate. The same is true for discrimination in employment, legal discrimination. All transphobic action roots in thinking trans people are their sex rather than their preferred sex. – there, fixed it for you.

btw gender & preferred sex/gender role preference/self identification aren't the same thing. Gender dysphoria is not an identity. Gender is like language, or culture, you can try to adopt others, but you can't unlearn your own. You can take the man out of masculine presentation, but you can't take the masculine conditioning out of the man.

seems like a typo

Again, trans-womxyn who say that trans-womxyn are men are not claiming that saying "trans-womxyn are women" is transphobic. But trans-womxyn who say "trans-womxyn are women" claim that saying otherwise is transphobic. The reason the former doesn't need to make this claim is because they have evidence on their side, while the latter has to use the accusation as a crutch in lieu of evidence.

It’s your obvious hatred for trans people that leads me to call you transphobic.

My "hatred for trans people" is now "obvious", is it? And you don't think an accusation like that requires any sort of evidence? Is Debbie Hayton's "hatred of transpeople" also "obvious" for saying trans-womxyn are men? Why do straight men kill gay men? Because they are men? Would insisting that gay men are women help prevent homophobia? Are GNC men who are neither gay nor trans immune to discrimination, or would they have to be read as women first?

Transphobes can't even tell the difference between trans-womxyn, gay men & GNC men most of the time. Just as there is no difference between man & adult human male. What all three groups have in common is their gender non-conformity. The prejudice is against non-conformity.

If trans-womxyn are viewed as feminine men they aren't conforming socially, if they are viewed as male women, they aren't conforming biologically. The word 'man' doesn't endanger trans-womxyn anymore than the word 'woman' protects them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Society uses man to with a behavioral component. “Be a man” is a command to act a certain way, not develop a chromosomal change.

So if a feral child is socialised as a wolf & identifies as neither a man nor a woman but instead as a wolf, she is not a wolf, but a woman, but were she to identify not as a man, nor a woman, nor a wolf, she'd be non-binary?

Birth sex is default. Absent dysphoria and trans status it’s default. She’s be non-binary only if she so identified.

The definition I use for man or woman are set based. I’ve laid them out previously but it’s not something citable . It’s a semantic issue not something you can just cite.

Adult, human & male – checks out for both men & trans-womxyn.

I consider your base definition flawed abs the proof failing. You would say the same to any definition I gave. Hence you have proven nothing to me. You predicate a proof on a definition I consider false.

Also, the universals of men: male sex, male socialisation (& subsequent male behavioural patters) & male privilege, are all shared by trans-womxyn. While the universals of women: female sex, female socialisation (& subsequent female behavioural patterns) & misogyny, are not shared by trans-womxyn.

I don’t agree that trans women have male behavior patterns nor trans men female. Also does that mean that you would agree a trans woman raised as a woman from early childhood would then be not a man since she were never given male socialization?

All transphobic action is predicated on the idea that trans-womxyn are male. No transphobic action is taken by anyone who believes trans-womxyn are not male. The idea that trans-womxyn are male & therefore deluded or sinister infiltrators is the predicate on all transphobic actions. A man kills a trans-woman because he thinks she is male & either has failed masculinity or affronted his own masculinity by eliciting his attraction. Belief she is male is the predicate. The same is true for discrimination in employment, legal discrimination. All transphobic action roots in thinking trans people are their sex rather than their preferred sex. – there, fixed it for you.

This isn’t fixed. Sex isn’t relevant to why we are hurt. Gender is.

btw gender & preferred sex/gender role preference/self identification aren't the same thing. Gender dysphoria is not an identity. Gender is like language, or culture, you can try to adopt others, but you can't unlearn your own. You can take the man out of masculine presentation, but you can't take the masculine conditioning out of the man.

Dysphoria isn’t identity but it’s predicate for identity. It’s required to be trans. Or at least legitimately trans.

Again, trans-womxyn who say that trans-womxyn are men are not claiming that saying "trans-womxyn are women" is transphobic.

Because it isn’t transphobic by any definition. It’s respectful of trans people.

But trans-womxyn who say "trans-womxyn are women" claim that saying otherwise is transphobic.

Because it’s not respecting trans people and is predicate for all transphobic action to think we are men.

My "hatred for trans people" is now "obvious", is it?

Yes. Your post history is literally just railing against our rights and existence. Your even come up with some really dehumanizing little nickname for us in lieu of even the “transwomen” compromise generally accepted in this space. Your hatred isn’t subtle.

Is Debbie Hayton's "hatred of transpeople" also "obvious" for saying trans-womxyn are men?

Also yes. She’s an agp who is so desperate for approval she is making a minor celebrity career by arguing against rights for actual trans people.

Why do straight men kill gay men? Because they are men?

Homophobia generally. Absent non related motive.

Would insisting that gay men are women help prevent homophobia?

That would be pretty unfair to gay men since being gay shouldn’t make you not a man.

Are GNC men who are neither gay nor trans immune to discrimination, or would they have to be read as women first?

Not at all. And I support fostering acceptance for them as well as protections. I’ve Already said I don’t like sexed behavior expectations. But they are less hated than us and are more physically capable of protecting themselves than trans women on hormones.

Transphobes can't even tell the difference between trans-womxyn, gay men & GNC men most of the time.

That’s just ludicrous. You know perfectly well if you see a gay man or a transitioned trans woman on sight. Let alone with context like a conversation or where you hear a name or anything about them.

The prejudice is against non-conformity.

You leave out the huge number of people that support homosexuality but are anti trans. My own mother demanded to know why I couldn’t “just be gay and normal” when I told her I was transitioning. Many hate both. But many also accept gay or even gnc but don’t accept being trans.

The word 'man' doesn't endanger trans-womxyn anymore than the word 'woman' protects them.

Man is the root of action against us. Woman is protective in social inertia as well as stealth. Even third category wouldn’t be necessarily as bad but thinking we are men is predicate to targeted action.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

"Be a man” is a command to act a certain way

Colloquially, yes. You said when it comes to what a man is, was a question of semantics & "definitional". Sometimes 'man' in colloquial usage is referring to masculinity, just as it is often referring to being male. So you're just cherry-picking. You're able to de-couple male from man despite the colloquial usages that combine the two as inseparable, but you're unwilling to do the same regarding masculinity & man. That doesn't make it fact. It's just your opinion.

How can the feral child be a "cis" woman despite lacking a "gender identity"? Do only trans people have "gender identities"?

'Adult human male' is not something I made up though, so you are making a false equivalence when you compare the consensus on the denotation of 'man' to your own, personal definition that you're reluctant to share. It seems to be a universal trait among all QT/TRAs to not be very forthcoming, specifically when it comes to defining 'woman' as well as what makes a trans-woman a woman & not a man. Why is that?

Trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in crime & high positions & media – that's what I'm talking about when I say 'male behavioural patterns'. The patriarchal structure exists within microcosms, which includes the microcosm of the trans population. Trans-womxyn are the social majority & trans-men the social minority. It's clearly just a continuation of androcentrism. Calling it "gynocentrism" would be very affirming for trans people, but it'd be inaccurate, wouldn't it?

So anyway, trans people's gendered behavioural patterns are concordant with their gendered socialisation. This is proof that early childhood socialisation cannot be undone & redone differently.

a trans woman raised as a woman from early childhood would then be not a man since she were never given male socialization?

This hypothetical trans-woman doesn't exist. There are intersex people with CAIS, who are technically male, but whose bodies don't process androgens properly, so they look female & so are mistaken for being female & consequently are brought up accordingly. If gender identity is innate then it's quite the coincidence that the vast majority of these intersex people who are technically male all have a gender identity that is concordant with their socialisation instead of their sex.

Sex isn’t relevant to why we are hurt. Gender is.

The "mismatch" is. Whether it's your sex that "doesn't match your gender" or your gender that "doesn't match your sex", it comes to the same thing. A male woman & a feminine man are exactly the same thing to a bigot.

Dysphoria isn’t identity but it’s predicate for identity. It’s required to be trans. Or at least legitimately trans.

Why would an identity need to be pathologised? If it's pathologised it's not an identity, if it's an identity it needn't be pathologised. How can it be both?

It’s respectful of trans people.

How can saying "trans-womxyn are women" be respectful of trans people, when not all trans-womxyn agree? I thought misgendering was the highest offence, why make an exception for trans-womxyn with "the wrong opinion"? Saying trans-womxyn are men is in no way disrespectful to the trans-womxyn you disagree with, so your statement is patently false.

Because it’s not respecting trans people and is predicate for all transphobic action to think we are men.

I think what you meant was "and is predicate for all transphobic action to think trans-womxyn are male".

Yes. Your post history is literally just railing against our rights and existence. Your even come up with some really dehumanizing little nickname for us in lieu of even the “transwomen” compromise generally accepted in this space.

You're always doubling down on your accusations, but never substantiating them. Men get human rights, not women's rights. Trans people's rights need to based on trans status, not self identification, otherwise you throw non-binary people under the bus (80% of whom are members of the female sex, so that's not really a concern of the movement) – you're just pretending that reasonable views like this are transphobic, because the well being of trans people doesn't concern you, your ideology is paramount. You believe your accusations against me hold more weight without the use of excerpts to back them up. I wonder why that could possibly be...

She’s an agp who is so desperate for approval she is making a minor celebrity career by arguing against rights for actual trans people

You kind of changed the topic. I brought up Debbie Hayton as an example of a trans-woman who says that trans-womxyn are men. Are trans-womxyn who insist that trans-womxyn are men transphobic? Why, or why not?

That would be pretty unfair to gay men since being gay shouldn’t make you not a man.

Again, would insisting that gay men are women help protect them against homophobia though?

and are more physically capable of protecting themselves than trans women on hormones.

Well, whose fault is that? Plus, GNC men "pass" at much lower rates, so it cancels out.

You know perfectly well if you see a gay man or a transitioned trans woman on sight.

Who can tell a femboy & a trans-woman apart? Hence why bigots use catchall insults like "sissy" that they apply indiscriminately to all three (GNC men, gay men & trans-womxyn).

Many hate both. But many also accept gay or even gnc but don’t accept being trans.

You leave out people that support transition over homosexuality.

Woman is protective in social inertia as well as stealth

I'll re-word it then, to make it even clearer than it already was: "feminine man" doesn't endanger trans-womxyn any more than 'male woman' protects them.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Being woman is not a semantics, lol.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We are disagreeing about a specific definition. It’s literally a semantic question.