Both: what is the source/origin of the claim "trans-womxyn are women"? The DSM-5/icd-11 don't make the claim, I can't find it anywhere within sociology or psychology, not even within queer theory. Is it just a hashtag?

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Society uses man to with a behavioral component. “Be a man” is a command to act a certain way, not develop a chromosomal change.

So if a feral child is socialised as a wolf & identifies as neither a man nor a woman but instead as a wolf, she is not a wolf, but a woman, but were she to identify not as a man, nor a woman, nor a wolf, she'd be non-binary?

Birth sex is default. Absent dysphoria and trans status it’s default. She’s be non-binary only if she so identified.

The definition I use for man or woman are set based. I’ve laid them out previously but it’s not something citable . It’s a semantic issue not something you can just cite.

Adult, human & male – checks out for both men & trans-womxyn.

I consider your base definition flawed abs the proof failing. You would say the same to any definition I gave. Hence you have proven nothing to me. You predicate a proof on a definition I consider false.

Also, the universals of men: male sex, male socialisation (& subsequent male behavioural patters) & male privilege, are all shared by trans-womxyn. While the universals of women: female sex, female socialisation (& subsequent female behavioural patterns) & misogyny, are not shared by trans-womxyn.

I don’t agree that trans women have male behavior patterns nor trans men female. Also does that mean that you would agree a trans woman raised as a woman from early childhood would then be not a man since she were never given male socialization?

All transphobic action is predicated on the idea that trans-womxyn are male. No transphobic action is taken by anyone who believes trans-womxyn are not male. The idea that trans-womxyn are male & therefore deluded or sinister infiltrators is the predicate on all transphobic actions. A man kills a trans-woman because he thinks she is male & either has failed masculinity or affronted his own masculinity by eliciting his attraction. Belief she is male is the predicate. The same is true for discrimination in employment, legal discrimination. All transphobic action roots in thinking trans people are their sex rather than their preferred sex. – there, fixed it for you.

This isn’t fixed. Sex isn’t relevant to why we are hurt. Gender is.

btw gender & preferred sex/gender role preference/self identification aren't the same thing. Gender dysphoria is not an identity. Gender is like language, or culture, you can try to adopt others, but you can't unlearn your own. You can take the man out of masculine presentation, but you can't take the masculine conditioning out of the man.

Dysphoria isn’t identity but it’s predicate for identity. It’s required to be trans. Or at least legitimately trans.

Again, trans-womxyn who say that trans-womxyn are men are not claiming that saying "trans-womxyn are women" is transphobic.

Because it isn’t transphobic by any definition. It’s respectful of trans people.

But trans-womxyn who say "trans-womxyn are women" claim that saying otherwise is transphobic.

Because it’s not respecting trans people and is predicate for all transphobic action to think we are men.

My "hatred for trans people" is now "obvious", is it?

Yes. Your post history is literally just railing against our rights and existence. Your even come up with some really dehumanizing little nickname for us in lieu of even the “transwomen” compromise generally accepted in this space. Your hatred isn’t subtle.

Is Debbie Hayton's "hatred of transpeople" also "obvious" for saying trans-womxyn are men?

Also yes. She’s an agp who is so desperate for approval she is making a minor celebrity career by arguing against rights for actual trans people.

Why do straight men kill gay men? Because they are men?

Homophobia generally. Absent non related motive.

Would insisting that gay men are women help prevent homophobia?

That would be pretty unfair to gay men since being gay shouldn’t make you not a man.

Are GNC men who are neither gay nor trans immune to discrimination, or would they have to be read as women first?

Not at all. And I support fostering acceptance for them as well as protections. I’ve Already said I don’t like sexed behavior expectations. But they are less hated than us and are more physically capable of protecting themselves than trans women on hormones.

Transphobes can't even tell the difference between trans-womxyn, gay men & GNC men most of the time.

That’s just ludicrous. You know perfectly well if you see a gay man or a transitioned trans woman on sight. Let alone with context like a conversation or where you hear a name or anything about them.

The prejudice is against non-conformity.

You leave out the huge number of people that support homosexuality but are anti trans. My own mother demanded to know why I couldn’t “just be gay and normal” when I told her I was transitioning. Many hate both. But many also accept gay or even gnc but don’t accept being trans.

The word 'man' doesn't endanger trans-womxyn anymore than the word 'woman' protects them.

Man is the root of action against us. Woman is protective in social inertia as well as stealth. Even third category wouldn’t be necessarily as bad but thinking we are men is predicate to targeted action.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

"Be a man” is a command to act a certain way

Colloquially, yes. You said when it comes to what a man is, was a question of semantics & "definitional". Sometimes 'man' in colloquial usage is referring to masculinity, just as it is often referring to being male. So you're just cherry-picking. You're able to de-couple male from man despite the colloquial usages that combine the two as inseparable, but you're unwilling to do the same regarding masculinity & man. That doesn't make it fact. It's just your opinion.

How can the feral child be a "cis" woman despite lacking a "gender identity"? Do only trans people have "gender identities"?

'Adult human male' is not something I made up though, so you are making a false equivalence when you compare the consensus on the denotation of 'man' to your own, personal definition that you're reluctant to share. It seems to be a universal trait among all QT/TRAs to not be very forthcoming, specifically when it comes to defining 'woman' as well as what makes a trans-woman a woman & not a man. Why is that?

Trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in crime & high positions & media – that's what I'm talking about when I say 'male behavioural patterns'. The patriarchal structure exists within microcosms, which includes the microcosm of the trans population. Trans-womxyn are the social majority & trans-men the social minority. It's clearly just a continuation of androcentrism. Calling it "gynocentrism" would be very affirming for trans people, but it'd be inaccurate, wouldn't it?

So anyway, trans people's gendered behavioural patterns are concordant with their gendered socialisation. This is proof that early childhood socialisation cannot be undone & redone differently.

a trans woman raised as a woman from early childhood would then be not a man since she were never given male socialization?

This hypothetical trans-woman doesn't exist. There are intersex people with CAIS, who are technically male, but whose bodies don't process androgens properly, so they look female & so are mistaken for being female & consequently are brought up accordingly. If gender identity is innate then it's quite the coincidence that the vast majority of these intersex people who are technically male all have a gender identity that is concordant with their socialisation instead of their sex.

Sex isn’t relevant to why we are hurt. Gender is.

The "mismatch" is. Whether it's your sex that "doesn't match your gender" or your gender that "doesn't match your sex", it comes to the same thing. A male woman & a feminine man are exactly the same thing to a bigot.

Dysphoria isn’t identity but it’s predicate for identity. It’s required to be trans. Or at least legitimately trans.

Why would an identity need to be pathologised? If it's pathologised it's not an identity, if it's an identity it needn't be pathologised. How can it be both?

It’s respectful of trans people.

How can saying "trans-womxyn are women" be respectful of trans people, when not all trans-womxyn agree? I thought misgendering was the highest offence, why make an exception for trans-womxyn with "the wrong opinion"? Saying trans-womxyn are men is in no way disrespectful to the trans-womxyn you disagree with, so your statement is patently false.

Because it’s not respecting trans people and is predicate for all transphobic action to think we are men.

I think what you meant was "and is predicate for all transphobic action to think trans-womxyn are male".

Yes. Your post history is literally just railing against our rights and existence. Your even come up with some really dehumanizing little nickname for us in lieu of even the “transwomen” compromise generally accepted in this space.

You're always doubling down on your accusations, but never substantiating them. Men get human rights, not women's rights. Trans people's rights need to based on trans status, not self identification, otherwise you throw non-binary people under the bus (80% of whom are members of the female sex, so that's not really a concern of the movement) – you're just pretending that reasonable views like this are transphobic, because the well being of trans people doesn't concern you, your ideology is paramount. You believe your accusations against me hold more weight without the use of excerpts to back them up. I wonder why that could possibly be...

She’s an agp who is so desperate for approval she is making a minor celebrity career by arguing against rights for actual trans people

You kind of changed the topic. I brought up Debbie Hayton as an example of a trans-woman who says that trans-womxyn are men. Are trans-womxyn who insist that trans-womxyn are men transphobic? Why, or why not?

That would be pretty unfair to gay men since being gay shouldn’t make you not a man.

Again, would insisting that gay men are women help protect them against homophobia though?

and are more physically capable of protecting themselves than trans women on hormones.

Well, whose fault is that? Plus, GNC men "pass" at much lower rates, so it cancels out.

You know perfectly well if you see a gay man or a transitioned trans woman on sight.

Who can tell a femboy & a trans-woman apart? Hence why bigots use catchall insults like "sissy" that they apply indiscriminately to all three (GNC men, gay men & trans-womxyn).

Many hate both. But many also accept gay or even gnc but don’t accept being trans.

You leave out people that support transition over homosexuality.

Woman is protective in social inertia as well as stealth

I'll re-word it then, to make it even clearer than it already was: "feminine man" doesn't endanger trans-womxyn any more than 'male woman' protects them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Colloquially, yes. You said when it comes to what a man is, was a question of semantics & "definitional". Sometimes 'man' in colloquial usage is referring to masculinity, just as it is often referring to being male. So you're just cherry-picking. You're able to de-couple male from man despite the colloquial usages that combine the two as inseparable, but you're unwilling to do the same regarding masculinity & man. That doesn't make it fact. It's just your opinion.

Colloquial usage is what matters in language. And you are still ignoring the whole “ this belief is the root of harm” piece.

How can the feral child be a "cis" woman despite lacking a "gender identity"? Do only trans people have "gender identities"?

Cis is the default. If you aren’t trans you are cis. It doesn’t imply more than “not trans”.

Adult human male' is not something I made up though, so you are making a false equivalence when you compare the consensus on the denotation of 'man' to your own, personal definition that you're reluctant to share. It seems to be a universal trait among all QT/TRAs to not be very forthcoming, specifically when it comes to defining 'woman' as well as what makes a trans-woman a woman & not a man. Why is that?

I’ve already shared my definition multiple times. It’s just a set based one.

Trans-womxyn outnumber trans-men in crime & high positions & media – that's what I'm talking about when I say 'male behavioural patterns'. The patriarchal structure exists within microcosms, which includes the microcosm of the trans population. Trans-womxyn are the social majority & trans-men the social minority. It's clearly just a continuation of androcentrism. Calling it "gynocentrism" would be very affirming for trans people, but it'd be inaccurate, wouldn't it?

Trans women and men aren’t the right comparison. Trans women aren’t the social majority in any sensible categorization. The relevant question is how trans women relate to cis men or non trans people as a whole, since that’s the factor (being trans) that leads to their social marginalization.

This hypothetical trans-woman doesn't exist. There are intersex people with CAIS, who are technically male, but whose bodies don't process androgens properly, so they look female & so are mistaken for being female & consequently are brought up accordingly. If gender identity is innate then it's quite the coincidence that the vast majority of these intersex people who are technically male all have a gender identity that is concordant with their socialisation instead of their sex.

They could if you all weren’t fighting so hard to make sure we were trapped in prescribed gender roles until we were adults. You fight against children having care access then use that lack of access as an argument against trans people.

The "mismatch" is. Whether it's your sex that "doesn't match your gender" or your gender that "doesn't match your sex", it comes to the same thing. A male woman & a feminine man are exactly the same thing to a bigot.

No, they aren’t. Many, many people who have come to accept feminine men still hate trans women. Like all of the Gc movement is “men should be able to wear dresses” also “trans people shouldn’t have x y z”

How can saying "trans-womxyn are women" be respectful of trans people, when not all trans-womxyn agree? I thought misgendering was the highest offence, why make an exception for trans-womxyn with "the wrong opinion"? Saying trans-womxyn are men is in no way disrespectful to the trans-womxyn you disagree with, so your statement is patently false.

If they think they are men, I don’t consider them trans women. They are either quislings so deep in bootlicking they’ve forgotten who they are or cis people working to harm trans people. I will still use preferred pronouns though, because that is basic politeness.

I think what you meant was "and is predicate for all transphobic action to think trans-womxyn are male".

I don’t mean that and you know that. Your intellectual dishonesty is showing.

Men get human rights, not women's rights. Trans people's rights need to based on trans status, not self identification, otherwise you throw non-binary people under the bus (80% of whom are members of the female sex, so that's not really a concern of the movement) –

That doesn’t logically follow. I want rights specific to trans people and I include non-binary people in that so long as they are dysphoric.

you're just pretending that reasonable views like this are transphobic, because the well being of trans people doesn't concern you,

Access to rights and necessary services for trans people is the thing I argue for most. This is some full on gaslighting.

You believe your accusations against me hold more weight without the use of excerpts to back them up. I wonder why that could possibly be.

Click on your profile and read away. You are trying to invent an anti trans slur, but go ahead and play the “I’m the reasonable party” game.

You kind of changed the topic. I brought up Debbie Hayton as an example of a trans-woman who says that trans-womxyn are men. Are trans-womxyn who insist that trans-womxyn are men transphobic?

Yes. Because they are pushing anti trans agendas. Being trans doesn’t make you immune to being a transphobe any more than being gay makes you unable to be a homophobe.

Again, would insisting that gay men are women help protect them against homophobia though?

No. Being considered non men because they are gay is in fact a manifestation of homophobia. Gay men are still men. And their fight is to be recognized as such and accepted. Calling them women is counter to that aim.

Well, whose fault is that?

Nature? Hormones? Unless you say we are responsible for the harm done to us if we transition. Even you would have to admit that’s a transphobic take.

Plus, GNC men "pass" at much lower rates, so it cancels out.

How so? Passing may effect the chance of attack but doesn’t help if one actually happens. Testosterone matters there.

Who can tell a femboy & a trans-woman apart?

People who know their names or see their bodies or listen to them talk. This isn’t just silent attacks in lonely dark alleys.

You leave out people that support transition over homosexuality.

Because they don’t exist outside of theocracies.

I'll re-word it then, to make it even clearer than it already was: "feminine man" doesn't endanger trans-womxyn any more than 'male woman' protects them.

I disagree.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Cis is the default. If you aren’t trans you are cis. It doesn’t imply more than “not trans”.

Does no one have a "gender identity" then? How is this feral child going to experience gender euphoria then?

I’ve already shared my definition multiple times.

You've shared no such thing. Connotations aren't denotation, remember? Made-up "definitions" aren't definitions either. Giving made-up definitions the same validity as actual definitions would defeat the purpose of definitions.

Trans women and men aren’t the right comparison. Trans women aren’t the social majority in any sensible categorization. The relevant question is how trans women relate to cis men or non trans people as a whole, since that’s the factor (being trans) that leads to their social marginalization.

Within the microcosm of the trans population trans-womxyn are the social majority, just as gay men are among homosexuals. Why is the overlap between gay men & trans-womxyn, instead of between lesbians & trans-womxyn?

They could if you all weren’t fighting so hard to make sure we were trapped in prescribed gender roles until we were adults. You fight against children having care access then use that lack of access as an argument against trans people.

It's impossible, unless you can tell an infant is trans from birth, at which point you could socialise them accordingly. 80% of trans kids desist – that's a good thing, if gender dysphoria is as bad as is made out to be, right? Any kind of trans movement endorsed care would exacerbate the problem & make sure more of them stay dysphoric. Any other kind of care that was aimed at trying to get more kids to desist would be regarded as "conversion therapy". Topsy-turvy.

No, they aren’t.

Yes, they are.

Many, many people who have come to accept feminine men still hate trans women. Like all of the Gc movement is “men should be able to wear dresses” also “trans people shouldn’t have x y z”

Ah, so being a feminine man is safer for trans-womxyn than being a female woman then? A moment ago you were arguing the polar opposite.

If they think they are men, I don’t consider them trans women. They are either quislings so deep in bootlicking they’ve forgotten who they are or cis people working to harm trans people. I will still use preferred pronouns though, because that is basic politeness.

It's hilarious that you consider yourself an authority on what it means to be trans, who is & who isn't trans, but would never afford the same curtesy to women deciding who is & who isn't a woman & what it means to be a woman. Your hypocrisy is showing.

That doesn’t logically follow. I want rights specific to trans people

That's what I said, but based on trans status, not self-identification.

Access to rights and necessary services for trans people is the thing I argue for most. This is some full on gaslighting.

So, not women's rights, but trans-based, trans-specific rights, right?

Click on your profile and read away. You are trying to invent an anti trans slur, but go ahead and play the “I’m the reasonable party” game.

See, you did it again. Accusations without substantiating your claims. If you can't produce the evidence, then the evidence does not exist. Calling feminist rhetoric bigoted is the oldest anti-feminist trick in the book. There are trans people who agree with my views & "cis" people who don't. You guys always pretend that being critical of an absurd ideology that posits the unfounded claim that "trans-womxyn are women" is somehow anti-trans. I'm anti the dumbass ideology. GC feminism welcomes gender non-conformity & is critical of gender conformity, regardless of sex – it's called being consistent.

Yes. Because they are pushing anti trans agendas. Being trans doesn’t make you immune to being a transphobe any more than being gay makes you unable to be a homophobe.

So every culture in the world since the beginning of time is pushing an anti-trans agenda, just because they don't subscribe to your ideology, got it. Remember anti gender-appropriating ideologies ≠ anti-trans i.e. it's a non-sequitur.

Being considered non men because they are gay is in fact a manifestation of homophobia. Gay men are still men. And their fight is to be recognized as such and accepted. Calling them women is counter to that aim.

Same goes for trans-womxyn.

Nature? Hormones? Unless you say we are responsible for the harm done to us if we transition. Even you would have to admit that’s a transphobic take.

Some GNC men medically transition. Even you know that. You even consider trans-womxyn like Debbie Hayton to be men (something you both agree on). Therefore GNC men are not in a better position to physically defend themselves than trans-womxyn are, so were wrong, again.

How so? Passing...

You yourself talked about stealth being a viable way for trans-womxyn to protect themselves. You're incapable off being consistent, mate. You just take up whatever position is most convenient at the time. So the fact that trans-womxyn are more likely to pass than GNC men the advantage GNC men supposedly had cancels out.

People who know their names or see their bodies or listen to them talk. This isn’t just silent attacks in lonely dark alleys.

Then dark alleys are the problem. You should change your slogan to "only medically transitioned trans-womxyn who I agree with ideologically are women".

Because they don’t exist outside of theocracies.

A substantial amount of the US is a pseudo-theocracy then. If you can pass as the opposite sex you'll be better off in a lot of small towns, rural areas, the Bible Belt etc. than if you're a homosexual.

I disagree.

No, you don't disagree with this statement: "'feminine man' doesn't endanger trans-womxyn any more than 'male woman' protects them", remember:

Many, many people who have come to accept feminine men still hate trans women. Like all of the Gc movement is “men should be able to wear dresses” also “trans people shouldn’t have x y z”

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Does no one have a "gender identity" then?

Trans people do.

You've shared no such thing. Connotations aren't denotation, remember? Made-up "definitions" aren't definitions either. Giving made-up definitions the same validity as actual definitions would defeat the purpose of definitions.

I have multiple times. It’s set based.

Within the microcosm of the trans population trans-womxyn are the social majority, just as gay men are among homosexuals.

That’s not true. Because of homophobia and mysogyny trans women are on the more marginalized end of trans people. T trans men and non-binary people blend and trans men benefit from male privilege if they blend.

80% of trans kids desist – that's a good thing, if gender dysphoria is as bad as is made out to be, right?

Nearly zero percent of trans kids desist. Some gnc kids who aren’t trans desist.

Ah, so being a feminine man is safer for trans-womxyn than being a female woman then?

Being a feminine man is safer than being a trans woman. But a trans woman isn’t a feminine man and those who think of them as men are the ones hurting them.

It's hilarious that you consider yourself an authority on what it means to be trans, who is & who isn't trans, but would never afford the same curtesy to women deciding who is & who isn't a woman & what it means to be a woman. Your hypocrisy is showing.

There’s no hypocrisy. I have dysphoria so am trans. If they think of themselves as men they can’t be that dysphoric. Being a woman isn’t a mental illness so it isn’t so easily delineated.

So, not women's rights, but trans-based, trans-specific rights, right?

Both depending on the right in question. For instance you need trans specific employment protections but also women’s protections, because action taken against a trans woman could be motivated because they are trans or because they are women so they must be protected on both axes.

See, you did it again. Accusations without substantiating your claims.

I literally pointed out what you are doing in this thread that is obvious transphobia.

There are trans people who agree with my view

No there aren’t. There are no trans people that think trans women should be referred to by womxyn.

You guys always pretend that being critical of an absurd ideology that posits the unfounded claim that "trans-womxyn are women" is somehow anti-trans. I'm anti the dumbass ideology.

Misgendering and personal insults are both against board rules. Not that there’s anything substantive here but I did want to point out your obvious ignoring of the boundaries of the space.

GC feminism welcomes gender non-conformity

They sure make a lot of jokes about men in dresses and insulting appearances ironically then.

So every culture in the world since the beginning of time is pushing an anti-trans agenda, just because they don't subscribe to your ideology, got it. Remember anti gender-appropriating ideologies ≠ anti-trans i.e. it's a non-sequitur.

Trans people have always existed. Many cultures had non-binary social roles and people who have had to cope with who they are by living in the opposite gendered role are as old as society. Pretending otherwise is just disingenuous.

Same goes for trans-womxyn.

That’s literally the opposite. We have to fight every day to be accepted as the women we are. Gay men are fighting to be seen as the men they are. Hence not the same.

Some GNC men medically transition. Even you know that. You even consider trans-womxyn like Debbie Hayton to be men

I didn’t call Debbie Hayton a man, I said I didn’t consider her trans but would use preferred pronouns, and you are conflating from a tiny percentage to the whole without a logical basis. Those gnc men who fully hormonally transition are not more physically capable than trans women but are a fraction of a fraction of gnc men. Even then they can simply claim to be drag queens or cross dressers and are less likely to be harmed since it’s more socially accepted. The rest of gnc men are more physically capable of protecting themselves than trans women.

You yourself talked about stealth being a viable way for trans-womxyn to protect themselves. You're incapable off being consistent, mate. You just take up whatever position is most convenient at the time. So the fact that trans-womxyn are more likely to pass than GNC men the advantage GNC men supposedly had cancels out.

That doesn’t follow. Most trans women don’t pass and regardless of that, the fact that they are more socially accepted and (with some tiny percentage of exception) more capable of protecting themselves is still far outweighing that small percentage of t trans women blending (who lose that safety if revealed).

Then dark alleys are the problem. You should change your slogan to "only medically transitioned trans-womxyn who I agree with ideologically are women".

What? I said it wasn’t about dark alleys. And that doesn’t reflect my position at all. Dysphoric trans women who want to transition count for my purposes. I include those who have been medically barred from transition or who have been for instance financially barred. Just not those who aren’t dysphoric.

A substantial amount of the US is a pseudo-theocracy then.

I mean you aren’t wrong on that point. But there is no place in the US a trans woman is better off than a feminine man.

Feminine men are far more accepted than trans women. But trans women are seen by transphobes as feminine men who have overstepped their station and become perverts and decievers. Rather than simply seeing us as women living our lives.