Discuss with just facts?

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

I asked you questions. You didn’t answer them. You haven’t proven that it’s not innate and most people, including the people here, including even the most qt of people here, understand that sexuality is innate. Like I said- why would someone choose a sexuality that they knew would ostracize them and put them at risk?

If heterosexuality is innate there’s no reason to not see that homosexuality is as well. Both are true.

Is there evidence of a heterosexual gene? Genuine question.

Since you’re a member of the community- when, and why, did you choose to be homosexual? How did you train your body to respond sexually to the same sex? How did you suppress the heterosexual gene you must’ve been born with?

Lastly, I don’t think saying you are attracted to the same sex and have no control over who and what you are attracted to is comparable to saying you were born in the wrong body or have a “gender identity” that doesn’t match your sex. They are completely different things. One side is saying, “I heart the same genitalia as what I have , and would like to not be persecuted for that”. The other side is saying “I am the opposite gender to my sex, I understand what it is to be the opposite gender even though I came to this conclusion while I appeared and was treated solely as the sex I was born. Now I demand that you and everyone accept what I say as fact and valid. If you don’t- you’re a bigot.” Not the same.

Sorry- this is the last thing: a quick google search would show that there’s actually ample evidence that sexuality is in fact innate. But go ahead and keep insisting that there isn’t lol. Weird flex, but you do you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

I'm not claiming heterosexualitiy is innate. That's my point. There is no proof sexuality is innate. There are a number of reasons someone would choose a sexuality they know would ostracize them and put themselves at risk, but there's also plenty of reason to believe sexuality is formed through experience. There is evidence to support that. I'm not going to disprove your claim - I don't have to prove something isn't - that's not how debate works. If someone makes a positive claim, they have to support it. This is up to you to prove there is any bit of evidence other than your feelings that sexuality is innate. In any form.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

And what experience do have gay men in Iran, where it is impossible to know from anywhere about homosexuality and no one will show, tell or even hint on it for them?

positive claim

All negative claims were proven wrong, as poster above said. And if all negative claims are wrong then positive claim is true, as it was not disproven by all tries.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

This is more whataboutism. Surely the male children in Iran who have been sexually assaulted by a male know a thing or two about same-sex relations. Please do better than trying to prove someone is wrong with "what about the hijras and two spirit and seahorses!"

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So gay men in Iran are just rape victims? And lesbians how appearing in there then?

One of doctors who was "curing" me from lesbianism, thought that I had sexual assault experience and just was afraid of penises. You are going good road along those homophobes.

They did a lot of things trying to cure me. Took them around 10 years, and than homophobic laws were cancelled (I wonder how I learned lesbianism at the age of 7-9). Can tell you about all methods used, I am not triggered much anymore from remembering that time.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not saying gay men in Iran are rape victims, and I'm not sure what that has to do with the fact that there is no evidence that sexuality is innate. This is a whataboutism. This is discounted as a debate topic.

I understand your personal anecdote of your sexuality is traumatizing. So's mine, but I'm not using it as an appeal to my argument because I don't have evidence, as personal anecdotes does not evidence make. I don't know how you learned lesbianism at the age of 7-9. I was five, and I don't know how I did either, being pre-sexual. Probably someone introduced it to me or the girl I was with, which is the same as how many people are often socially indoctrinated into sex-behaviors.

[–]ColoredTwiceIntersex female, medical malpractice victim, lesbian 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is not. You are saying that sexuality comes with experience and can be changed. Yet, you have no evidence for that, while all the logic is telling is that it is almost impossible for it to be true, especially in homophobic countries. You are telling than sexuality can be changed, yet all dozen kinds of conversion therapies never worked, homosexual people not changing their sexuality even under fear of death and researches about changing sexuality gave no results. Homosexual and heterosexual people in majority are saying it was from childhood and never changed even if they really really tried and really really wanted (especially true about lesbians, who tried to become straight or bisexual). If all the tries to confirm that sexuality is fluid failed - then it is not fluid, at least in overwhelming majority of cases.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

“There are a number of reasons someone would choose a sexuality they know would ostracize them and put themselves at risk. I’m just going to continue to avoid clarifying what they may be while I also avoid answering your questions.”

If sexuality isn’t innate you should be able to answer my questions. It’s odd that you refuse to answer me, your own comments contradict your stance, but you keep clinging to it lol. I think at this point I’m over responding to people who skirt the topic and just keep repeating themselves with no basis. So unless you answer my questions I think we’re done here.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

What questions? You want me to account for how everyone's sexuality is formed? There are 7.5 billion, and my stat is that the level of bisexual women went from 2% (same as bisexual men) tp 13% in a decade. That's a fact. We are all programmed via the same hypersexual socialisation that teaches that women are sex objects. This topic is discuss with facts. Fact - sexuality can change. Fact - there is no evidence to support innate sexuality. You say it's innate. I'm not claiming it's anything other than a social construct we've labeled and created identities around. If it's innate, you have to provide the proof. You're the one refusing to answer my questions. Where is ANY evidence ANY sexuality is innate?

"If God isn't real, you should be able to prove it." No, Sloane, the person who makes the positive claim must prove it. That's the atheism debate - people not claiming religious beliefs are real can't be expected to prove God, gender, invisible flying unicorns, sexuality. It isn't proven if they haven't and one can only assume it isn't real.

What question do you want me to answer that isn't some whataboutism trying to deflect my point via random "why would this example do this if they're persecuted for it?" questions (why would religious people be killed for their beliefs - they'd say that one can't believe in another (unproven) god, and they'll die via persecution to stay true) or asking about my sexuality to decide to strawman or decide my qualifications aren't enough to speak on the topic.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Lmao calm down.

I asked you how you chose your sexuality and why you chose it. I asked you how you trained yourself to be attracted to the same sex, and if you had to suppress heterosexual feelings.

I just assumed you were qualified to speak on yourself, my bad.

also, fyi, when people claim something is a social construct, they can at least express how they see that construct appear and impact people. “It’s a social construct” is not a “get out responding free” card lmao

And yes, if you’re going to say that sexuality isn’t innate, you are saying that people chose something life threatening and that meant they’d not have equality and would have to hide their relationships or force themselves into heterosexual relationships as a cover, you’re basically saying they chose a sexuality that they had to suppress or keep a secret- I am incredibly curious about why so many people would do this to themselves when they could just choose to be heterosexual, I asked you that and you said “many reasons” but failed to offer even one. But I guess you can ignore that part since it’s clearly out of your depth. You claim that it’s media, but won’t address the fact that sexuality existed before media did. And that many people have a sexuality that goes against what media pushes on people. I just think when you argue against something that most people accept as a given, questions pop up, and it’s odd that you’d snap and defend not answering it, when you are the one who came here with a view that most people don’t share- so the onus would actually be on you to prove what you claim. Nobody else blinked when the other commenter said sex was innate. Only you did. You introduced a new claim- you should be able to easily back it up. The burden would be on you but go ahead and take it off because clearly you can’t carry it.

I will say tho, media is a poor answer becuse the narrative for decades was “hetero good, homo bad, bi not a thing” and we still had homosexuals and bisexuals. There’s not more bisexual people now, imo. There’s just more openly bisexual people now. But whatever. Clearly you can’t handle debate so we can drop it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I asked you that and you said “many reasons” but failed to offer even one.

You're being disingenuous. I listed three in my response:

People have plenty of reasons for sexuality - trauma, being exposed to something at the time of sexuality discovery and certainly socialization.

These things are known to cement in paraphilia.

Do I think those people choose a sexuality like they choose cereal? Absolutely not, but to pretend we understand how experience, nurture, effects sexuality and whether or not humans have one at all (which is my point - you keep appealing to emotionally appealing examples to people who face social ostracization and punishment for homosexuality as if that is proof of innate sexuality). I don't believe sexuality is innate. Homosexual or heterosexual or bisexual. I think we were a socially sexual species that uses sex for both social bonding, recreation and reproduction. I believe we've all been so thoroughly programmed about sexuality to make a claim about it without evidence (like it's innate - again, any evidence for that, and I'd love to counter that, but an argument of whataboutism appealing to my emotional state is no better than TRA do with gender) is not logical.

You claim that it’s media, but won’t address the fact that sexuality existed before media did.

What sexuality do we know of that precedes media? Dworkin certainly shows how Marquis de Sade affected a world's sexuality without broadcast media.

Question for you - how do YOU explain the rise in women reporting as bisexual to have changed from 13% from 2% while men have stayed at 2%?

And that many people have a sexuality that goes against what media pushes on people.

Which is often shaped by a variety of factors of environment, like trauma, but not only trauma, which can cement us into things against the social norms, even things that are harmful or can cause us to be ostracised or murdered.

you are the one who came here with a view that most people don’t share

Which doesn't mean you're right. Again, it was our side, the LGBT that claimed all sexuality was innate (no evidence), doubling down on Catholicism who claimed a specific sexuality was innate (no evidence), because we cannot express the proved (evidence) fact that sexuality can change and be affected by trauma and experience. Just because we all agreed to something without evidence and feel the need to continue defending that false statement because the modern gender movement is using it to violate lesbian's boundaries, does not mean it's science or fact. There is more evidence to the contrary than to support innate sexuality.

Nobody else blinked when the other commenter said sex was innate.

Sexuality, you mean? Correct, because, again, who is going to argue the last inclusive message that was universally accepted without proof (and claims of bigotry or right-wing alignment if you challenged it). You're being pretty aggressive with me about it, which is why other people won't even consider challenging their thought on it or looking for evidence. Not that I agree with him on much, but Salty has been saying this for years, and no one has ever actually debated him with any studies or facts countering it because there are none.

I am not introducing a new claim that needs to be defended. I'm pointing out a lack of evidence in your claim.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Lmao you still won’t answer the questions about yourself? And do you think everyone had trauma or decided to sleep with the same sex because they saw it on a television show? Even people who lived before television?

I didn’t appeal to emotion. I asked you how you made your choice of sexuality since nobody else I’ve ever met had made that claim, and I figured you’d be able to explain it since you’re so confident in your assertion.

You are absolutely introducing a new claim- you’re the only person here claiming it... it wasn’t even my claim lol, people here say all the time that sexuality is innate. You’re the one saying it’s not. Sounds like a new claim to me.

You keep saying it’s because media and society and all this bs but that doesn’t explain why people have sexualities that are counter to what media promotes. Nobody would be gay until maybe a few decades ago- and then where would the media get the idea to portray homosexuality? We should all be jumping at the chance to sleep with trans people based on today’s media. You can’t account for variance you can’t account for the fact that billions of people have a sexuality that is different from what society pushes- even historically this is the case. And you still can’t explain why your own responses about your sexuality contradict what you said about sexuality not being innate. Also- how would anyone ever become any sexuality to begin with, like waaaaay back in time before it was ever recorded? We know there were homosexuals and bisexuals in the past- where did they get the idea, when media didn’t exist? You can blame trauma, but who traumatized the first person to traumatize someone into a sexuality? Who exposed the first gay people to being gay?

Of course exposure informs sexuality- how do we find out what we are attracted to until we encounter it? That doesn’t mean we are influenced by it. A lesbian can be exposed to a male and a female. She’s only going to respond sexually to a female. And she likely grew up with the media depicting heterosexual relationships as the norm. As a female, she’s more likely to have experienced some type of sexual trauma, but it’s not a given. A gay man can be exposed to a male and a female. He’s not going to respond to the female form the way he will to the male. He may face pressure to be hetero- so how does that factor into your claim? Him being gay despite pressure to be straight? As far as trauma- if someone is molested by a person the same sex does that make them gay or straight m? Opposite sex?

I’d also take a wild guess and say I’m pretty sure sexuality existed before books. Since you know... there were people on the planet able to make books. And before them people were around to make words but that may be a different convo. It’s worth noting that since a lot of books denounced homosexuality, it must’ve been around for them to denounce. Which would mean that those books are media- those books weren’t in favor of a sexuality that must’ve been present and known to exist for them to write about it.

Eta- can I ask if you’re gc or qt?

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not sure why discussing this.

Homosexuality exist in mammals without society. Done.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know what? Yes. It’s that simple lol

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

As for your question about the rise in bisexuality- I did address this. I said I think the difference is not that there are more bisexuals. I think there are more people comfortable with being open about their bisexuality, because it’s less stigmatized. I think that society can become more accepting and open to things than before, homosexuals and heterosexuals are more willing to accept bisexuality than before, so of course more bisexuals are open about it. Society progressing and being more accepting doesn’t mean that people are influenced to behave sexually in a way that’s counter to how they understand their sexuality, it means that people can be open about their sexuality as it comes naturally to them. We see this not just with sexuality, but also with “kinks” and the type of sex (be it positions or role playing or things like that, not hetero/homo sexuality to be clear) people are having. We aren’t all into bdsm just because 50 Shades of Gray made it a hot topic to discuss and read about. However, 50 Shades of Gray (despite being horribly written) did help some people figure out that they personally were into BDSM. So yea, media can help people discover things about their sexuality or sexual preferences, it doesn’t mean that media determines/influences it. People are exposed to all types of ideas about sex through media- they gravitate towards what feels natural to them, not what they see most frequently or what they see portrayed positively. Big Love was a pretty successful show (it’s also really good, if anyone reading this is looking for a new show and hasn’t seen it)- we didn’t see a spike in polygamy because of it.

Eta- I, a bisexual, have never been traumatized and really didn’t watch much TV as a child. When I did, it was usually older shows made before I was born, and the shows from the early 90’s where being gay was a punchline and not prominent. I was a huge reader- never read about bi or homosexuality at the time. I realized I was bisexual when I developed a crush on my closest friend... and her brother. I was 11. She was 12, she didn’t assault me or influence me. Her brother was 14 and barely acknowledged me. I had never seen bisexuality portrayed anywhere. I asked my father about my feelings. He explained different sexualities to me. So I guess it’s because of my dad that I’m bi?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I've watched you since back on the debate sub on reddit, always writing really long missives and engaging with people for days after you said you were done. Usually because you couldn't refute a point and intellectually spew out all over the place (as you're doing here) because you're appealing to many attacks without the ability to refute my point. You've gotten emotional about this - why else are you writing all this all-over-the-place stuff because you can't prove that sexuality is innate - you cannot do that, and there is evidence sexuality changes and is affected by environment. I'll end here - I know you'll respond because you can't help yourself. You spend way to much time in these forums and online, and it shows in your desperation for engagement. I shouldn't engage you further. Good luck.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And how about actually adressing the point instead of attacking the person, lmao?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lmao that’s a long way to say “I give up”

Nothing I wrote was emotional. I pointed out things that you can’t refute and it’s odd that you’d say I’m the one unable to refute things. You’ve offered nothing to refute while going out of your way to avoid addressing what at least two people have been saying. And somehow you think that means we/I can’t? Okay then buddy.

I think it’s odd to be on a forum and try to take a cheap shot at someone for also being on that forum. I wasn’t even participating here until a month ago. I’m quarantined with a child who’s too young for school and my husband, that’s it. Our city is locked down and has been for almost a year. Of course I have time lol

It’s hella weird that you’ve been “watching” me for a year 😂

But since you were watching me, you’d have seen that most people on that sub seemed to agree with me and think that I made sense, so it’s a weird flex to claim that I couldn’t refute anything.

Interesting, that you waited until now to say all of this. Almost like you just don’t have any way to dismiss what I said so you dismissed me.