Is the "RudeFem" Stereotype Desirable to GC or Is It An Unfortunate Association?

submitted by LemurLemur from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]worried19 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Some gender critical women embrace the stereotype. Some of us don't.

I think the bottom line is that it doesn't matter how nice we are. J.K. Rowling bent over backwards to be nice and compassionate and caring, and look what it got her. Endless rape and death threats. Certain people hate us for what we say, not how we say it.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I'm struggling to understand this, so definitely correct me if I'm understand wrong. When I used to lurk on the old debate sub, I saw many trans people and GC people get along, be courteous and even agree on some topics. It was really nice to see.

Does GC do anything to distinguish trans people who don't send death and rape threats as perhaps not warranting the same treatment as those who do? Because it might "not matter" to a GC individual who assumes all trans people are rapist no matter how you treat them, but I think to a trans person who hasn't harassed female celebrities (which is most of them), it would probably matter a lot to not be treated like one.

Am I making sense?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Are you serious? Did you make a post about gc women being rude and then have the nerve comment asking if we (gc) distinguish between the trans people who send death threats ans the ones who don’t? Are you able to distinguish between rude and polite gc people? We don’t interact with the trans people sending death threats on this sub, they don’t come here. When they do, they troll and get removed. But just because not all trans people are sending us death threats, that doesn’t mean we feel inclined to sacrifice our rights and spaces to the ones who don’t. You just said that on the old sub you saw many of us getting along and being courteous- so why are you even asking this question? You already saw the answer.

We don’t treat TW who don’t harass us the same ways we treat the ones who do. But- what you don’t realize is that the ones not sending us death threats are often still invading our spaces, policing our language, and doing all or most of the things that gc women are upset about- that’s still harassment. That’s still invasive. That’s still infringing on our rights. And they get treated as such by us. If I meet a TW who can leave women, our language, our spaces, our sports, etc alone- he’d have all of my respect and there’d be no resentment or rudeness towards him. You seem to think that sending threats and verbally harassing women who don’t agree with TW is the only way that they are upsetting or harassing women- it’s not. There are myriad ways that even the nicest, most self aware even gender critical transwomen are still offending and oppressing females.

Am i making sense?

ETA- not to speak for others, but I think the reason other users are saying your line of questioning is annoying is because you refuse to answer our questions or address our points. Maybe that’s not why you made this post, but it’s almost impossible to respond and have a clear dialogue if you don’t address what we are asking and saying, because those responses are how a conversation like this moves forward. We ask them so we can see where your thoughts are, in order to more effectively engage with you. When you skirt our questions and respond the way you do, it feels like you’re not remotely interested in discussing, rather that your intent is to just call gc rude and twist our responses to affirm that statement for yourself.

[–]MezozoicGaygay male 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ETA- not to speak for others, but I think the reason other users are saying your line of questioning is annoying is because you refuse to answer our questions or address our points.

And that behaviour is actually called as acting rude.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Did you make a post about gc women being rude and then have the nerve comment asking if we (gc) distinguish between the trans people who send death threats ans the ones who don’t?

I made a post asking about gc/rudeness. And in follow up to a response that suggested "it doesn't matter if we're nice, they will send death threats anyway", I asked for clarification as to whether they distinguished which trans people did what. I am glad I did, too, as I appreciate the clarification it received.

But just because not all trans people are sending us death threats, that doesn’t mean we feel inclined to sacrifice our rights and spaces to the ones who don’t.

I never said you should.

Are you able to distinguish between rude and polite gc people?

Yes. You have been rude and insulted me. worried19 did neither, and was still able to communicate her answer well. I would say she was very polite, articulate and answered in good faith. It very much helped the discourse run smoothly.

You just said that on the old sub you saw many of us getting along and being courteous- so why are you even asking this question?

Because everyone seems to be getting meaner and I am curious if it's intentional or not.

If I meet a TW who can leave women, our language, our spaces, our sports, etc alone- he’d have all of my respect and there’d be no resentment or rudeness towards him.

I mean, you are even being overtly rude towards me, and I'm not even a TW, nor have I said women should have to give up any of those things.

You seem to think that sending threats and verbally harassing women who don’t agree with TW is the only way that they are upsetting or harassing women- it’s not. There are myriad ways that even the nicest, most self aware even gender critical transwomen are still offending and oppressing females.

That’s still invasive. That’s still infringing on our rights. And they get treated as such by us

Am i making sense?

Yes.

EDIT:

the reason other users are saying your line of questioning is annoying is because you refuse to answer our questions or address our points.

Also, you keep saying this, and I keep re-reading and I'm trying to answer everything in good faith. I'm sorry you're getting annoyed by this. What question did you want me to answer, that I might have missed? Though I don't think my opinions are really relevant when I'm trying to learn about you, I really do want to answer as best I can.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn’t accuse you of anything nor did I mistake you for a transwoman. You made a post, and commented on it, I replied to your comment. Clearly, other people understand where I’m coming from and you are the one who doesn’t get what I’m saying. That’s okay, and it’s okay if you don’t want any clarification. My point is- it’s not so simple as saying “gc women are called rude, are you okay with that”. If you only wanted yes/no responses, you should have said that. It sounds like you’re saying we aren’t answering your question because we are expanding on it. And I find that a bit odd. Also, you calling me rude and saying another gc user isn’t rude is exactly my point- we as a whole are being called rude when not all of us are. The other point many of us are making is that we are being called rude solely for viewing sex/gender differently, no matter how we phrase it. Even if we are open to sharing spaces and using preferred pronouns, if we don’t think TWAW- we are rude and hateful. We are being called rude for not sharing the ideology of tras and some trans people. That’s worth noting and discussing. If that wasn’t a discussion you wanted to have them I understand that, that doesn’t mean that we aren’t going to discuss it anyway though.

I also don’t think that people are getting meaner, I think we are just done with dancing around what we are trying to articulate, and are speaking more bluntly.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I mean, of course. I personally judge people based on their character and their actions, not on their gender identity. I will always defend a well-meaning trans person. I believe most transgender people just want to live their lives in peace. The extreme trans activists online are a loud minority.

The main GC sub (both here and on Ovarit) has some people who paint the entire trans community with too broad of a brush. I don't support that. I even got in trouble a few times on the old debate sub for "tone policing" because I felt like some posters were too aggressive. It's also true that women are socialized not to be aggressive and not to stand up for themselves. I get that, but I'm against men acting like total dicks, too. However, even the most insensitive GC woman has never made a rape or death threat or wished bodily harm or violence on anyone, at least not that I've seen.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

The main GC sub (both here and on Ovarit) has some people who paint the entire trans community with too broad of a brush. I don't support that.

You are the only poster that has even acknowledged this. Thank you. I think I remember seeing your posts on the reddit sub, and I always appreciated your perspectives. I wish there were more people I could talk to about this, because I have a lot of problems with the way trans people act, too. There's plenty of things GC talk about that i think should be explored. But man, the GC hostility is hard to wade through. Thanks for answering in good faith, I also do try to remember when I have good interactions with GC people. Even if they don't happen as often as I wish they did.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

No problem, and welcome to the sub. Please feel free to stick around. We could definitely use more QT people.

I've always had some issues with the main GC sub. It's why I avoided it while I was on Reddit, but after the banwave, I said screw it, moderate gender critical women need to have our voices heard, too. So I started participating, but I don't always agree with everything that's said. There was one commenter on Ovarit the other day who basically painted all trans people as perverts who shouldn't be allowed near children. I was like, dude, way to make us all look like a bunch of bigots. Our valid criticisms are overshadowed when people get hyperbolic and start making extreme statements like that.

My main concern has always been for fellow gender nonconforming people, especially natal females, and children of both sexes. It bothers me when people only see the the lack of "niceness" of some of our community without listening to what the rest of us are actually saying. It's a problem for both sides, to be honest. I'm sure there are tons of trans men and women who don't support whatever some random trans person says on Twitter. It's the same everywhere. It's like if someone has a different political opinion these days, they're automatically evil. American politics is plagued with an "us vs. them" mentality.

[–]LemurLemur[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Our valid criticisms are overshadowed when people get hyperbolic and start making extreme statements like that.

I agree with this. There's a lot of things I've seen GC people discuss that I agree with in concept, but they way they talk about it is what drives me away from ever wanting to be part of GC culture (I'm not trans, but my sister is and we have discussions about this a lot). The problem is, every time either of us try to talk to GC people, it feels like they genuinely want to drive us away.

It bothers me when people only see the the lack of "niceness" of some of our community without listening to what the rest of us are actually saying.

It's honestly just not healthy to, dude. The responses to even this post, where I'm only asking if GC wants to be associated with this sort of behavior, I'm being called annoying and stupid. I don't think it's annoying and stupid to ask, and I don't think GC shouldn't be "allowed" to call me annoying and stupid, but I do think it's counter to my mental health to listen or internalize the opinions of people who consider me annoying and stupid, especially when part of telling me their perspective also includes elaborating on how annoying and stupid I am in the same time.

It's a problem for both sides, to be honest.

I agree with this. I've debated with people in trans communities as well, and I've seen plenty of rudeness there as well. But maybe because there's less unified opinions than there is in GC circles (it seems no two people have the same relationship with their own transition, or with the people they interact with post transition), but when someone is rude to me on most trans subs, there's at least other trans people who have also stood up for me, who tried to empathize where I was coming from. I've had multiple trans people message me and try to encourage me not to take my bad experiences as a sign that all trans people are equally negative...

I don't see this happen in GC circles. While trans people can be rude, there is at least a pretty wide swath of the community that will acknowledge that it happens and try to openly fight back against their own community to reclaim a less hostile narrative. I don't see this happen in GC circles. I rarely see any GC person even able admit GC has ever done anything to exacerbate the hostility at all. It's all just "TRA's hate us so everything we do and say is in self defense and thus completely excuseable". As it sounds like you've experienced, any GC people who do try to counter the narrative tend to get shouted down and accused of not being "real" GC.

So like... I agree with more GC positions than I do greater trans positions (like transwomen in sports ect), but the trans community at least has large pockets of people who don't hurt anybody and can just talk about movies and hiking and share art ect without needing to embrace the narrative that anyone "non-trans" is worthless trash. So I have more actually enjoyable conversations with trans people than GC people.

I really miss the old reddit sub, when it didn't just feel like GC people were sitting on a spiderweb, waiting for non-GC people to post here so they can jump down their throats and chase them away.

Please feel free to stick around. We could definitely use more QT people.

I wanted to stick around. I was really excited to find this sub, after it vanished from reddit and made a saidit account specifically to be able to chat here. But after slogging through and trying to respond to everyone here, only to be told over and over that I'm just annoying, stupid, rude, incapable of answering questions (tho no one will tell me what I'm failing to answer), incapable of forming arguments (even when I'm not trying to argue at all), and that if GC is rude to me, it's because I deserve it... I don't really know why anyone would want to stick around. I feel like I've just gone 10 rounds with my abusive gaslighting mother who used all the same lines on me ("I'm not abusive, you just deserve it for being stupid; if you can't answer for things you didn't even do it means I'm right; I'm actually the victim and you're attacking me" ect.) That's not even mentioning how bad the circle-jerking of GC people high-fiving one another for each comment, making it seem like the whole sub likes watching a dogpile...

If you ever find a sub where people can talk about GC stuff while also acknowledging the problems in GC, please feel free to message me. I'd love to participate. But this sub is not fun to participate on, and I am not surprised non-GC people do not stay long.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

every time either of us try to talk to GC people, it feels like they genuinely want to drive us away.

It's hard to empathise with this when you're the side that regularly gets told you deserve to die and choke on dicks and also gets banned on sight for not agreeing with "transwomen are women".

I do think it's counter to my mental health to listen or internalize the opinions of people who consider me annoying and stupid, especially when part of telling me their perspective also includes elaborating on how annoying and stupid I am in the same time.

So why not stop acting like that? You had it explained to you why your behaviour is bad-faith and unproductive, and you seem to understand that. If it bothers you that your behaviour is "annoying and stupid", then stop doing it, and if you don't think it is, well I'm legitimately curious to hear how you might interpret your own behaviour differently (but you never answered anyone regarding that). Why do you think bad behaviour deserves to be tolerated if it was explained to you why it's bad? Because it makes a person feel bad? Sometimes people need to feel bad for doing bad things so they can stop doing them.

tho no one will tell me what I'm failing to answer

Serious question: do you not notice that your own responses never address anything said by anyone, instead only repeating the same points? Every response of yours is like a completely new question that can be written literally anywhere else. I don't know if that behaviour has a name, but it's pretty common to have a person ask a question, get an answer and then ask the same question again while completely ignoring the contents of the answers they got. This tends to be done specifically to fake a willingness to discuss while sabotaging any attempts to move forward by basically being on loop and entirely unreceptive to anything said by others. I'm not saying you're doing this intentionally and with a hostile purpose, I'm saying that, to an outside observer, it's indistinguishable from it. I am legitimately curious how you perceive your own responses here.

It's all just "TRA's hate us so everything we do and say is in self defense and thus completely excuseable".

GC have not made "Kill all TRAs and make them choke on dicks" our catch phrase. Being rude and disagreeing with each other is one thing and par for the course honestly, telling people they deserve to get killed for disagreeing is another.

the trans community at least has large pockets of people who don't hurt anybody and can just talk about movies and hiking and share art ect without needing to embrace the narrative that anyone "non-trans" is worthless trash.

The trans community that regularly tells radical feminists they should get killed and choke on their dicks? The trans community advocating for the removal of women's hard earned protections? It's easy to act casual when your goal is to fit into the patriarchal status quo and when things are going your way, instead of when you're aware of just how deeply messed up our patriarchal society is.

I really miss the old reddit sub, when it didn't just feel like GC people were sitting on a spiderweb, waiting for non-GC people to post here so they can jump down their throats and chase them away.

Wasn't the old sub like that, too? It always skewed a lot more GC.

That's not even mentioning how bad the circle-jerking of GC people high-fiving one another for each comment, making it seem like the whole sub likes watching a dogpile

The problem is that there is no place that will allow GC to operate without having to automatically agree with the trans side and give up their rights. People agreeing with each other is completely normal and expected, from both sides, but by nature of GC being automatically excluded from normal communities and the trans ideology being notoriously unable to handle discussions, the result is that these subs end up skewing heavily on GC side and with the trans side not seeking out any spaces where they might be challenged beyond the altright level of "men in dresses are yucky". Sadly I don't see a way to fix this. Telling people to agree with each other less seems kinda silly. GC is always going to be hated both by conservatives for being against the patriarchy, and by liberals for not wanting to play nice with the patriarchy and being too radical, so it's hard to integrate into any space without giving up our ideals and basically turning into the "nice" liberal feminism.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, you and your sister are both welcome here if you want to participate. Not everyone is super combative. I feel like GC has got its pitbulls, but we've also got our golden retrievers. I prefer discussion to debate. I can debate about stuff, sure, and I do feel very strongly about things like child transition and BDSM, but I try to avoid making it personal. I know a lot of other GC people may just be out of patience, especially after hearing the same arguments repeatedly, but that's kind of what debate is. Two sides with opposite positions duking it out. It's like Christians vs. atheists. They don't have to hate each other, but sometimes the atheists are frustrated with the Christians because they keep getting the same excuses and what are (to them) non-answers.

The problem is, every time either of us try to talk to GC people, it feels like they genuinely want to drive us away.

We do have our QT regulars, but yeah, I get what you're saying. It was hard to attract long-term QT posters on the old sub, too. I think maybe some GC posters expect people to argue in bad faith, and so they adopt an adversarial tone right off the bat. To be honest, I don't know what it is. I don't think it's productive. But this is why I got in trouble for "tone policing" before. It's like, we already have an unpopular message. Why make it more unpopular with your style of delivery? It's bad strategy if nothing else.

But it's also true that we could bend over backwards to be nice, and it wouldn't matter. There are certain factions that want to shut down all discussion. Not just with threats of violence, but also suppression of our views. The Abigail Shrier book is a good example. She's respectful to trans people. She fully supports adult transition. She's not even against all forms of child transition. But the mere fact that she wrote a book about what's happening to natal female teenagers is enough to warrant active suppression and people calling for her book to be burned (an English professor) and withdrawn from circulation (an ACLU lawyer).

It's fucking scary out there. Which is why maybe GC women can be forgiven for sometimes feeling like we're under siege. It doesn't make personal attacks okay, but you can see why some of us may be out of patience. I'm more a "reach across the aisle" sort of person, but sometimes it feels like the people on the other side of the aisle are positioned to strike us. Women have lost their jobs for saying what we're saying. They've been subjected to rape and death threats. The other side is notably not on the receiving end of violence for their views, certainly not from us.

But back to this sub, I do hope you stick around. You can also not respond to certain people if you feel they're too aggressive. That's what I do. Our current sub is a lot smaller, but I feel like we actually lost some of our pitbulls in the transition. It seems overall more mild, although it does still skew GC. One major advantage here, though, no downvoting. That always pissed me off on the old sub. Like, why have a debate sub if you're going to downvote the other side to oblivion? Either we want debate or we don't. I would hate for this community just to become a big circlejerk.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Haha, yeah, we're out there. Even though I'm not GC. I'm not here to bash transpeople. I think much of QT is not based on science and research. I'm concerned that transitioning is pushed too hard and some TRA points cross the line (for example, threatening to take away people's licenses for suggesting to questioning people that they may have dysphoria for other reasons.)

I go harder on NB because that's even less based on science and research. I think rose of dawn said it very well (waiting for her specific video on it eagerly) that NB is a social phenomenon, not a neurological one.

But don't worry. There's room for us to get along. There's some crap to get through for sure, but hopefully, the more we show that we're here in good faith, the more people will have a discussion and think critically about their beliefs. People are really heated up about all this, and that's fair. A lot of lesbians are sick of being shoved out of the conversation. I totally understand that. But personal issues need to be put aside when trying to advocate your side.

Oh, and I want to personally invite you to look through any of my comments and counter the arguments set forth. I'm always happy to be challenged on my ideas.