QT oriented question but anyone can comment: How much of a choice do we have over our gender identity (assuming for the sake of argument that gender identity exists in all people)?

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

This explanation makes sense to me! I feel like there can be a mismatch in how we experience our bodies or about gender roles and we can identify with the opposite sex (obviously, I don’t see any other way to explain my experience), but maybe gender identity isn’t the right word for that. Also, if someone passes for the other sex and it grouped with the other sex socially long enough, do they develop a opposite sex gender identity based on your definition? I mentioned in another thread that I have to work at not seeing myself as a woman when I participate in gender critical spaces. I don’t feel like that like a magical gender soul thing though as much as it’s like a socialization thing. I feel like that might be really offensive though to GC because it would imply some socialization as another sex for some transitioned trans people and I don’t think you guys would like that.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I kind of think it would still be different from what women experience. You didn’t grow up with female socialization, you were shaped by the male socialization well before transitioning, if that makes sense. I will always come back to the fact that, no matter how well a transwoman passes and is able to “stealth”, internally it will always be experienced by someone who is not female. I can’t word things well, but I guess I mean to say that any experience you may have (or any passing transwoman) will always be experienced through the mind, eyes, and body of a male. So to me, and I don’t mean this to be rude, even if you see yourself as a woman and have difficulty not doing so- it doesn’t change the fact that you technically aren’t a woman and can’t say definitively that what you’re experiencing or how you’re feeling is the same way that a woman would feel, experience and internalize the same things. You’re still seeing yourself as a woman but only by what you understand a woman to be from the outside looking in. I hope this makes sense, I just mean to say that there will aways be some level of separation, you may be GC, but you’re also one of the people GC is trying to navigate around, you may be an ally for feminists- but you still won’t really understand what females are fighting for and against in the same ways that we do. Not because you’re insensitive or sexist or anything (clearly you aren’t) but simply because you are male so you can’t relate to the same degree imo. So I don’t know that I think even the most stealth passing transwoman receives female socialization, because they’d have already had male socialization before they passed, and any specific “female treatment” they receive will still always be experienced by and interpreted by someone who was socialized male before and is still now experiencing female socialization to whatever degree they are, through the eyes of a male person. I hope that made sense instead of coming across as rambling lol

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, even if from childhood transsexual was raised by pretending they are the opposite sex, they would still not experience something like "afraid to ask about gasket/pads at the age of 9", "will I lose my virginity if use tampons?" or even "fear to get raped and pregnant, as there some scary guys going around in the evening". No one will wait them to gave birth and to marry early for grandchildren, so treatment will be different even in this regard from parents who would be raising kid as opposite sex from childhood. A lot of things are not even considered in minds of male-bodied people, just because they are lacking the biology, even after SRS they are still lacking the biology and functionality, they only have "cosmetic looks", and that is it.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Thanks for the detailed response! You are making sense :)

I guess I’m more trying to describe that experience from my perspective rather than say it is the same as a female. It can’t possibly be because I’m not female and, as you said, I was male socialized when I was a child. That’s a trauma that I don’t share with any women, but I feel like I would have common experiences with someone who grew up as a feminine gay boy, even if they were not trans. Socialization I had after that doesn’t change that part my childhood.

It’s impossible to know how similar or different my experience of being in the world is from my friends because we can’t be in others people heads. I feel like we do share a lot of things in common though so it’s hard for me to imagine it’s totally different, but I guess you can never really know

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I just think that the difference in our sex will always separate transwomen and women, even in terms of gender identity (assuming it means what the other poster said). Even if you forget you’re not female or you have a lot in common with your female friends- I’d bet everything I have that when it comes to many issues or topics, the way your female friends internalize it differs drastically from how you do. The treatment you receive as a passing transwoman may well be similar (maybe even identical) to the treatment women receive, but it reinforces our socialization And how we were “taught” gender since before we were born, it goes against what you were taught at a young age, and imo even when you started to pass, you’re still having an entirely different experience. You’re experiencing life as a male who is perceived as a woman. I have no idea what that is like for you, internally, even when you explain some things I want to ask you more and more because it sounds foreign to me (tho I appreciate your honesty and willingness to answer me). I guess I just think that, we could and likely do have much in common, but I think what was said about gender identity being aligned with your sex still remains true, even when someone passes well.

I would also guess that, as you seem much more understanding and empathetic than pretty much every other TW from the sub, that you may personally be coming from a mentality where you have more respect for women, like you listen to listen and not to defend yourself or argue, and maybe that’s why you relate better.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sorry for the slow response.

Being a transsexual male who is perceived as a female is a unique experience that is different from females in many ways. I don’t know what life would be like to not be that. I don’t experience periods or have to worry about pregnancy, plus like the differences in childhood socialization so I know I’m not the same.

I guess I’m feeling like the way u/SnowAssMan described gender identity as a social identity, it’s difficult for me to see how my social identity isn’t a woman’s, though I mean that only in how I experience it. I don’t know if that makes sense lol. It can’t be the same as other women because I’m not a female. It’s not me trying to say that females experience the world the same way I do, just that I have difficulty labeling my experience in the world as a man’s experience and I don’t process it that way. It’s just hard for me to understand how my gender identity (using the earlier definition) could be aligned with my sex when I don’t experience it that way. I really appreciate you taking the time to explain your perspective and I’ll keep trying to understand. Thank you for the kind words. I really value interacting with you. :)

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I get what you’re saying, I think that’s why I was saying in my other comment that gender identity would have to be an individual thing. To me what you’re describing sounds like “gender identity”, but your gender identity seems to be drastically different from Masks, or Sextrillion (does anyone remember them?!!) or etc.. it seems like all of you three (and obviously many more TW) think of yourselves a women, but all of you think it in a different way. It seems personal, whereas for me and pretty much every woman in know, we just know we’re women because we’re female adults. I guess what I was trying to say is that gender identity isn’t “relevant” to society because it’s internal, while gender is society, and I think that’s why regardless of someone’s “gender identity”, if a trans person doesn’t pass, they won’t be perceived as their “preferred gender” (to use the term offered earlier). I get the view that passing TW are “socially women”, though I disagree for a few reasons, I acknowledge that a passing TW would be treated just like me unless or until it is known they are trans, but the fact that they would have to be “stealth” in order to receive that treatment is another huge divide. I remember you expressing concern about coworkers and friends finding out you’re trans, that’s for me, something that is a huge separation between “social women(Passing TW)” and women. I think it’s relevant that trans status being disclosed to society would influence the treatment and perception of a passing transwoman. Idk I’m rambling again. Need coffee lol.

Always enjoy interacting with you

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I would say that "looking from male/female perspective" does not depends on socialization at all. It is almost completely based on biology. So we are looking at same things from different point of refference. And same activities would leave different effects on us too. Like if you join feminists in USA and they will start speaking about tampon tax - you would not see this problem same as them. Or if someone threatens to rape you or even do this - it wil be horrible, but you will never be able to get pregnant, so fear of rape will be different from your perspective. If you will start smocking or drinking, you will never have concern "and what about my future kid I will born?" as one of negative aspects of it. And many small things like that. Obviously majority of things you will see absolutely from same point of view as we do, but a lot of small things or some angles of view would be still different.

By "you" I mean transsexuals in general, not you personally. English language is too weird.

By the way, have you read "Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men" ?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

“I would say that “looking from a male/female Perspective” does not depends on socialization at all. It is almost completely based on biology.”

That’s exactly what I was trying to say. Personal interpretations and identity aside, even regardless of how others see you- there's just some things that females and males understand differently. There’s just some things that no matter how many minute details you may know, you just cannot understand it the same way someone of the opposite sex can, and when we talk about “gender identity” that matters. No transwoman in the world will ever understand the socialization surrounding female bodies and the way they function (or are expected to). You may feel sad about not having this functions or abilities as a transwoman, but it’s still not the same way a woman would feel. You may compare your cramps from the cross sex hormones to menstruation cramps/pms- but you have no idea what pms/menstruation is like. There will always be aspects of womanhood that transwomen just cannot understand or internalize the way that women do, and if that has anything to do with gender identity- a transwoman’s gender identity and a woman’s gender identity will never truly be aligned. The examples you gave, especially the smoking before you’re even pregnant and wondering the possible effects on a hypothetical future child is such a great example!

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Just random thing to add:

but you have no idea what pms/menstruation is like

As far as I know, hormonal replacement therapy for transwomen and transmen are just constant same amount of hormones, and it almost never includes progesterones, which is main female hormone. Like before menstruation we have progesterones levels going low levels, and progesterone are sedatives, so we are becoming "less calm" because of that, then testosterone levels are increased, and blood is pumped into sensitive zones, it is like body is saying "it is your last chance to get pregnant", after what estrogenes raising, and we are getting separation of outter layer of uterus (with ovum) being separated and removed from body. So it is uncomfortable, with less sedatives in body than we used to, and with bigger urge for sexual activities, that is why PMS mostly happening. And hormones are going up and down all the time, they aren't just on same level all the time.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It doesn’t really matter, but I guess I’ll provide a little bit of detail. Hormones being more constant for trans people is my understanding too. I think there is some fluctuation in how you your body processes it at different times or the delivery isn’t perfectly constant, but it doesn’t cycle the same way female hormones do for much of your lives. At least for me, progesterone is something I take. I don’t know how common it is. I’m not really sure exactly why, but I’ve been told I should have it in my system. Oddly, when I was in my 20s, my boyfriend ask me too check and see if anything was wrong because my sex drive was especially low (guys usually want it more, but it felt off too me too) and my doctor upped my progesterone to help with that. I don’t really know why, but it helped.

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

but it doesn’t cycle the same way female hormones

Well, I see no reason why it should. And even for women cycle is becoming less and less extreme with years, until it just stops after menopause, and only small fluctuations are here and there. So there no reason in it, if you can't get pregnant. Most likely it will just mess up with health instead.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Your points make sense. My experience will always be different. I only understand things like tampon tax or pregnancy from the perspectives of my friends, which is different than experiencing them personally. I empathize on those issues so they are things I care about even though they don’t, by themselves, change much for me. Like, when I was in college I was involve in fighting for reproductive rights and I still am. I feel like we are all in this together though so we are all affected by those things, even if I’m not as directly as my friends.

Yes, I read Invisible Women over the summer. I feel like I already knew the world isn’t designed for women, but it really opened my eyes to areas I hadn’t thought of before, like crash testing and workplace hazards. We have such a long way to go. 🙁

[–]VioletRemihomosexual female (aka - lesbian) 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I feel like we are all in this together though so we are all affected by those things, even if I’m not as directly as my friends.

Well, obviously yes. Nothing can be achieved without allies, and especially allies who are holding the power. Like, for example here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland

Previous referendum [on women's vote rights] was held on 1 February 1959 and was rejected by the majority (67%) of Switzerland's men.

And women were not able to vote, obviously. So yeah, women in some European countries gained rights to own stuff and open bank accounts just 30 years ago or even less far. We just recently barely got any real rights in some countries (majority of the world is not Western world, and some countries "pro-women" changes are just eyebrow raising - like reading news "in SA by new law now women would get an SMS when they are got married on someone or divorced", wtf, it is still done without her consent and presense, but now at least she know, lol), and there is already this huge misogynyc backlash and attempts to remove any rights from us again.

Question was about other thing, tho.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I would say it is reasonable to categorize both gay men, feminine gay men, feminine men, and trans woman, as gender atypical men.. And there's a good chance they can all commiserate on certain things.. in a way they could not with their female counterparts.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Okay, I’d agree with that. I’d have things in common (at least in childhood) with each of those other groups. Sexual orientation is big. Like, I feel like I’d have much more in common with a feminine gay man than a bisexual or gynephilic transwoman at least for our childhoods and probably more. We just are more likely to share common interests irl, so I don’t think I’m wrong in assuming that.