GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

If it were up to me, they would keep existing as they are now, the only difference would be that they would be listed as their biological sex in legal documents. At most as people of their sex presenting as the other sex (but still not considered legally part of their preferred sex/gender). I don' t really care much if trans people inform any person they meet of their status, all I care about is that they are not legally listed as their preferred sex and that they inform sexual partners of it: not disclosing would be considered rape by deception.

I also don' t care if trans people are read as their preferred sex or if other people decide to follow their requests and call them their preferred pronouns/labels: in short, I don' t care if you call yourself a woman and your husband calls you his wife, I don' t care if you tell everyone that you are in a heterosexual relationship, and I don' t care if your family and friends, or even colleagues or random people on the street call you a woman. What I care about is that, legally, you aren' t recognized as a woman. Male who presents as a woman (or whatever other euphemism that means that)? Sure. Woman? No.

This obviously has consequences in the real world, which would be addressed. Like sex segreated spaces: there would be co-ed or even trans-exclusive/neutral spaces. Sports leagues? Same. Sex segregated positions? Same.

People would be able to choose whether to call trans people their preferred pronouns/labels without fear of repercussions.

As for medical transition, I don' t know which is best between allowing everyone who wants it to get it as a cosmetic surgery, or make it something that can only be given to someone after psychological evaluation. I think I am leaning on the former more than the latter, but anyway I wouldn' t ban it. Except for children: absolutely NO medical transition for anyone under 18.

[–]IceColdLover 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with everything you have said here.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I appreciate that most things wouldn’t have to change. The lack of legal sex change makes me nervous just because of outing and potentially being discriminated against. I understand it is a legal fiction though. It makes sense to me that GC is not comfortable with that since it could be abused so many ways and isn’t reality. I wish there was a way to take it off most forms of ID or only have it visible when there is a reason to know. I don’t mind if there is a something that says I’m male (because I am), but I do worry about moving through the world.

People would be able to choose whether to call trans people their preferred pronouns/labels without fear of repercussions.

That makes sense. I feel like it’s wrong to pressure someone to use gender pronouns if they aren’t comfortable with that. I feel like most people would still use preferred pronouns if they read the person as that sex because it takes effort not too.

As for medical transition, I don' t know which is best between allowing everyone who wants it to get it as a cosmetic surgery, or make it something that can only be given to someone after psychological evaluation. I think I am leaning on the former more than the latter, but anyway I wouldn' t ban it. Except for children: absolutely NO medical transition for anyone under 18.

This one I disagree on. I feel like there should be gatekeeping and it should be treated like a medical issue and move very slowly to make sure there aren’t other options. I go back and forth on children because I was able to do some things before I was 18, but after I’d been though lots of therapy so it’s hard for me to feel like it’s always bad, but I think it should at least be mid teens and only if it been an issue someone has struggled with openly since before puberty (that’s super important so it’s not sexual I feel like).

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The lack of legal sex change makes me nervous just because of outing and potentially being discriminated against. I understand it is a legal fiction though. It makes sense to me that GC is not comfortable with that since it could be abused so many ways and isn’t reality. I wish there was a way to take it off most forms of ID or only have it visible when there is a reason to know. I don’t mind if there is a something that says I’m male (because I am), but I do worry about moving through the world.

Keep in mind that there would be more protections for trans people: I would immediately make it clear that discrimination in housing, healthcare and jobs would be unacceptable. That said, those things aren' t exactly perfect even now for other categories, so the risk would always be present. But you are right that I am talking from a GC position: it makes no sense for a GCer to accept that sex markers would be based on presentation or gender identity.

That makes sense. I feel like it’s wrong to pressure someone to use gender pronouns if they aren’t comfortable with that. I feel like most people would still use preferred pronouns if they read the person as that sex because it takes effort not too.

Maybe, I don' t know. I would probably use preferred pronouns too if things weren' t so crazy. It is an ideological issue I have because it is used against us, if things were clear that trans people are not their preferred categories, I probably wouldn' t care as much about how important the meaning of words is. But as it is now, I think that we need to make things clear.

I see the point you are making about transition, I don' t necessarily disagree with it, but as I said in another comment my kind of gatekeeping would make it basically impossible for anyone to transition. I have several problems with it being considered a cure for a psychological problem, among them the fact that physical surgery would only be limited to people with body dysphoria alone because I don' t think a social problem should be treated with surgery. Secondly I would need an objective diagnosis, which would be kind of impossible to get.

That' s why I would prefer if it were considered cosmetic surgery: everyone would have the possibility to get it. On the other hand, you are right that it would open the gates for people getting it for all the wrong reasons. But any other kind of cosmetic surgery works that way. That' s also why I said I don' t know which option is better.

I wouldn' t ban it, but I think that the gatekeeping we have now is stupid and regressive and the kind that would be perfect for me would virtually make it impossible for anyone to transition. Problem is, this isn' t something we can get neutral gatekeeping on because the need for it is completely subjective. You can' t really have someone objectively declaring that you need to transition, it all comes from your feelings. Maybe before doing it it should be required to follow some kind of course? So that every possible option could be discussed and valued? I don' t know.

I honestly think that considering it a cosmetic procedure would make it less "exciting" for many people who shouldn' t get the surgery to begin with. As for people who get it and regret it... that' s something that is a risk for every cosmetic surgery unfortunately. It' s a black/white situation about body autonomy: I am all for body autonomy, so I think that whatever you want to do to yourself, you should be able to. This isn' t different, despite the fact that I am not the biggest fan of it. Granted, I am not the biggest fan of any cosmetic surgery. But still, I wouldn' t require a psychological evaluation/attending a course for a woman who wants a boob job, so... that' s kind of the dilemma.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Keep in mind that there would be more protections for trans people: I would immediately make it clear that discrimination in housing, healthcare and jobs would be unacceptable. That said, those things aren' t exactly perfect even now for other categories, so the risk would always be present.

More protections would definitely help. I’m not sure if soft discrimination wouldn’t still occur though, like you said, it wouldn’t be perfect. I feel like a lot of employers might just feel like it was easier to pass on someone who was trans and it would be difficult to prove that was the reason.

but as I said in another comment my kind of gatekeeping would make it basically impossible for anyone to transition. I have several problems with it being considered a cure for a psychological problem, among them the fact that physical surgery would only be limited to people with body dysphoria alone because I don' t think a social problem should be treated with surgery. Secondly I would need an objective diagnosis, which would be kind of impossible to get.

Okay, that makes sense! I wouldn’t want a situation where no one ever could. I agree that is weird to address a mental health problem with surgery, but I feel like there are some of us who genuinely need it to be able to function (probably much, much fewer than identify as trans currently though). Totally objective diagnosis is difficult because so much of it is subjective unless doctors find it in the brain or something (plus people would probably not accept it if they were told that didn’t actually have whatever it was), but I feel they can rule out other things that might be causing it or sexual motivations. I worry about people like me (because it did happen to me) being grouped with predatory trans people in support spaces and if there isn’t gatekeeping I feel like that will happen even more.

I honestly think that considering it a cosmetic procedure would make it less "exciting" for many people who shouldn' t get the surgery to begin with.

I hadn’t thought about this. It definitely seems like a benefit.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

More protections would definitely help. I’m not sure if soft discrimination wouldn’t still occur though, like you said, it wouldn’t be perfect. I feel like a lot of employers might just feel like it was easier to pass on someone who was trans and it would be difficult to prove that was the reason.

That' s unfortunately something that happens for everyone, not just trans people. I guess this is something that would probably benefit more the ones already in the job/house than people who are looking. In the sense that if you are living somewhere, come out and they kick you out despite never bringing problems, that would probably be something that could be fought and won. Or if you have always done your job, come out and then fired.

It' s the same with women: in my country, they can' t fire you if you get pregnant, but they can refuse to hire you if you are a woman because "what if she gets pregnant?".

Unfortunately, we can' t really read people' s minds when it comes to these things.

but I feel like there are some of us who genuinely need it to be able to function (probably much, much fewer than identify as trans currently though)

I don' t doubt it, that' s why I don' t want to ban it. I don' t think it' s my place to say whether someone should get surgery or not. It' s their business in the end, and if it really makes them feel better, good for them.

I just think that if gatekeeping needs to be a thing, then it should be done seriously and as objectively as possible. But the way it is now it' s tragic: the stuff you find in the DMS is laughable at best. Most of the points they use to diagnose dysphoria are plain and simple stereotypes (like children wanting to play with toys associated to the other sex). That needs to go, I don' t think it' s beneficial for anyone, "cis" or trans.

Problem is, how can you make it objective? Or as close as objective as possible? If it' s supposed to come after a medical diagnosis, what is the thing that the diagnosis should be based on? I think in the end, everything boils down to what the trans person wants. And if that is what the most important thing is, then why telling a person that their reasons are valid and another that their reasons aren' t. Like, yes, I get it that a person who would be suicidal if not allowed to transition is not the same as one who wants to do it because of sexual arousal. But who am I to tell them that one can do it and another cannot? I think the best thing to do would be to go for a case by case basis and, when we are talking about support groups, try to keep in mind the background of everyone so that someone like you doesn' t end up with someone like Jessica Yaniv.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I just think that if gatekeeping needs to be a thing, then it should be done seriously and as objectively as possible. But the way it is now it' s tragic: the stuff you find in the DMS is laughable at best. Most of the points they use to diagnose dysphoria are plain and simple stereotypes (like children wanting to play with toys associated to the other sex). That needs to go, I don' t think it' s beneficial for anyone, "cis" or trans.

I almost feel like in order to really have it be unbiased we’d almost have to get to gender abolition. It’s hard to not making femininity or masculinity a part of it at all because those things occur together so much especially in younger trans people. I know from my own gatekeeping experiences that the fact I was feminine and could pass without much effort made gatekeepers much more agreeable to approving medical intervention. Me wanting to be a girl intuitively made sense to them I feel like. I’m 100% sure that I would have been treated differently if I had been more masculine physically, or taller, or behaved less stereotypically feminine even if I was just as dysphoric. I guess it also gets into questions about whether gatekeepers should evaluate what your quality of life would be if you transition. Maybe it would be possible to train gatekeepers to be more gender critical, but it’s hard to imagine it wouldn’t influence their decisions at all.

when we are talking about support groups, try to keep in mind the background of everyone so that someone like you doesn' t end up with someone like Jessica Yaniv.

I think separate different types of trans people might help even if it’s invalidating to some. Also, I feel like if we were taught we needed to keep our guard up the same way it is around men that would help. I think it’s a problem that all trans experience get reduced to one thing so your supposed to be able to relate to them and their supposed to be like you and that makes it where you don’t understand they might not be safe.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, as long as gender exists, bias will be present. Without gender only the ones with body dysphoria would be interested in transition to begin with.

I am not sure about the evaluation of the quality of your life after transition: it is a good idea in theory, but in the end I think that what is more important is simply be honest with the person who seeks the treatment. The gatekeepers don' t necessarily have to be GC, that would be bias in the other sense and I don' t think it would be objective either. They just have to be frankly blunt about what the person is about to face in the most neutral way possible.

I strongly believe that adults should be allowed to do whatever they want to themselves, and that, unfortunately, includes things that could be dangerous. But I can' t help but find it incredibly irritating to decide something about your own body and then have a bunch of people you don' t know telling you that for your own good it would be better to not do it. Especially if they hold power over you (aka, they can legally stop you from doing it). It' s the same for things like hysterectomies, and I am not a fan of voluntary hysterectomies (the ones that are done not because the patients need them but because the patients want them) either.

In general, I think that people should accept the consequences of their own actions: if you are not forced to do something, you were given all the possible informations against it, you weren' t encouraged to do it but left to your own opinions and after doing it you regret it... you should accept that you made a mistake and that it was your own decision. And then try to adjust to your new situation.

Things aren' t like that at the moment, though: it' s way too common to hear that trans people thought that their life was going to be fabolous after the surgery because everyone, doctors included, told them as such, and when reality bites in they realize that they were lied to. With a better medical iter this wouldn' t happen. I think it would help both the patients and the doctors. As it is now, I hope many trans people and many detransitioners sue the hell out of them and win. I work in medical care, and the way these doctors are acting, minimizing the risks and the success and treating surgery (not just the transition type, but in general any kind of cosmetic surgery) as not that big of a deal is disgusting. It' s shameful that these doctors and medical professionists are sacrificing ethics and the only thing you should have in your mind (the well-being of your patient) in order to get money and/or headpats. I don' t excuse the ones who do it out of fear of being cancelled/fired either: cosmetic surgery doesn' t work in the same way as life-saving surgery, doctors in that branch can refuse a patient (Hell, doctors in life-saving surgeries fields can refuse patients for ethical reasons, the ones who work in cosmetic surgery can do it with even fewer issues), so if they do it despite not thinking it' s the best thing to do, they are jerks.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful response! I feel like you may just be more distrusting of gatekeeping in general than I am.

It' s the same for things like hysterectomies, and I am not a fan of voluntary hysterectomies (the ones that are done not because the patients need them but because the patients want them) either.

I’m like very pro-reproductive rights and I feel like women should be able to make those choices no questions asked. I guess I usually feel differently about transition surgeries because, at least how things where when I transition, those things would give you the ability to change documents. I just don’t want people who aren’t safe to be in women’s spaces. Maybe I should rethink if it wouldn’t affect that, but I did mention worrying about support spaces a little.

Things aren' t like that at the moment, though: it' s way too common to hear that trans people thought that their life was going to be fabolous after the surgery because everyone, doctors included, told them as such, and when reality bites in they realize that they were lied to. With a better medical iter this wouldn' t happen. I think it would help both the patients and the doctors. As it is now, I hope many trans people and many detransitioners sue the hell out of them and win. I work in medical care, and the way these doctors are acting, minimizing the risks and the success and treating surgery (not just the transition type, but in general any kind of cosmetic surgery) as not that big of a deal is disgusting. It' s shameful that these doctors and medical professionists are sacrificing ethics and the only thing you should have in your mind (the well-being of your patient) in order to get money and/or headpats. I don' t excuse the ones who do it out of fear of being cancelled/fired either: cosmetic surgery doesn' t work in the same way as life-saving surgery, doctors in that branch can refuse a patient (Hell, doctors in life-saving surgeries fields can refuse patients for ethical reasons, the ones who work in cosmetic surgery can do it with even fewer issues), so if they do it despite not thinking it' s the best thing to do, they are jerks.

I hope doctors get sued too. Reading a lot of the horror stories online it seems like they often aren’t giving realistic expectations. I wonder if more surgeons or doctors who aren’t as good are entering this areas because there is money to be made. Like everything just became so affirmation focused in the last decade or so and I think it creates a warped view of how your life will actually be for many people. Also, internet communities reinforce that. I think these things can help, but actually being comfortably integrated into the world is like the biggest thing I feel like, and that’s not something that medical treatments can usually deliver by themselves. Also, the people who say trans genitals are exactly the same are hurting trans people I feel like because they may be setting them up for disappointment.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I feel like you may just be more distrusting of gatekeeping in general than I am.

I am not distrusting of gatekeeping, it' s definitely a good idea. I am distrusting of people, especially the ones who are in power. Gatekeeping doesn' t exist in a vacuum, people would have to delieate the rules of it and other people would be the ones putting in action the process. Too many individuals involved for it to be something that could work: humans ruin everything, even good ideas.

The concept of gatekeeping exists to avoid letting someone ruin their own life. But I am of the idea that everyone should be free to do what they want, even if that means ruining their life. I think it' s better that a person chooses what to do, even if that means making a mistake, then letting someone else making that decision for them. Plus, as I said, people in power are never neutral of unbiased: they are all either seeking a way to get their own benefits or to push an agenda. I think it would be better for a person to seek their own benefits and agenda then being a tool in someone else' s hands.

If gatekeeping were indeed a neutral process, I would probably be more open to it. But it can' t be, because people will never be neutral.

I’m like very pro-reproductive rights and I feel like women should be able to make those choices no questions asked. I guess I usually feel differently about transition surgeries because, at least how things where when I transition, those things would give you the ability to change documents. I just don’t want people who aren’t safe to be in women’s spaces. Maybe I should rethink if it wouldn’t affect that, but I did mention worrying about support spaces a little.

But would you feel the same if documents either weren' t changed or were changed in a way that didn' t make women' s spaces more dangerous? I agree that this is the crux of the matter, and yes, if you could keep out dangerous people who are using transition just to hurt women, then gatekeeping would definitely be better. But that too isn' t a perfect science: some abusers are way smarter than the gatekeepers who would analyse them.

You' re right that reproductive rights, in the end, don' t have the same issues that transitioning brings: if a woman wants a hysterectomy, she' s not hurting, directly or potentially, anyone. However, I am not a fan of surgeries that are not done to fix a medical problem in general. I just really dislike the idea of going under surgery because you want to and not because you need to, and with "need to" I mean having a physical issue that can be proven and measurable. And I dislike the idea that spread in the past few years that surgery is just not that big of a deal. That includes hysterectomies, they aren' t an exception just because I am pro-body autonomy and reproductive rights. I am not trying to ban those surgeries and I would never dream of fighting against them: I just don' t like them and the attitude lots of supporters have.

I hope doctors get sued too. Reading a lot of the horror stories online it seems like they often aren’t giving realistic expectations. I wonder if more surgeons or doctors who aren’t as good are entering this areas because there is money to be made. Like everything just became so affirmation focused in the last decade or so and I think it creates a warped view of how your life will actually be for many people. Also, internet communities reinforce that. I think these things can help, but actually being comfortably integrated into the world is like the biggest thing I feel like, and that’s not something that medical treatments can usually deliver by themselves. Also, the people who say trans genitals are exactly the same are hurting trans people I feel like because they may be setting them up for disappointment.

Agreed. You can' t force social acceptance on people, and the way the trans community is behaving is not helping at all in the long run. I think it' s just going to create resentment and distrust: forcing someone to like you is never going to make anyone actually like you. Everyone who felt victimized by this attitude will revolt the second they can, and the ones who don' t care about the issue are just going to take the side that seems like it' s winning.

As for the attitude doctors and TRAs have about surgery and the life after transition, I think that some people are just so much into the idea that they are unable to recognize the reality of things. Others give me a "misery loves company" vibes.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You’ve thought about this a lot. :)

Gatekeeping can’t ever really be perfect, but maybe it could be good enough to help.

But would you feel the same if documents either weren' t changed or were changed in a way that didn' t make women' s spaces more dangerous?

I’d feel a lot better about it.

But that too isn' t a perfect science: some abusers are way smarter than the gatekeepers who would analyse them.

That’s true, sadly. There was more gatekeeping years back, but there were still abusers who managed to move through that system.

However, I am not a fan of surgeries that are not done to fix a medical problem in general. I just really dislike the idea of going under surgery because you want to and not because you need to, and with "need to" I mean having a physical issue that can be proven and measurable. And I dislike the idea that spread in the past few years that surgery is just not that big of a deal. That includes hysterectomies, they aren' t an exception just because I am pro-body autonomy and reproductive rights. I am not trying to ban those surgeries and I would never dream of fighting against them: I just don' t like them and the attitude lots of supporters have.

I understand feeling that way about elective surgery. I’m sure I would too if I like I wasn’t like I was and it’s difficult to imagine doing anything like that now. It’s sort of crazy when you think about it because your body works, but people still have reasons for wanting them even when it’s not something like dysphoria. Sometimes I wonder if maybe some therapy or something before some elective surgeries even that weren’t gender related just so they could establish it wasn’t a dysmorphia thing?

You can' t force social acceptance on people, and the way the trans community is behaving is not helping at all in the long run. I think it' s just going to create resentment and distrust: forcing someone to like you is never going to make anyone actually like you. Everyone who felt victimized by this attitude will revolt the second they can, and the ones who don' t care about the issue are just going to take the side that seems like it' s winning.

Agree. It will hurt us all eventually. It’s painful to watch it happen.

[–]MrFahrenheit46Gen Z butch dyke 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed on all counts.