GC: If GC achieves it’s goal around trans issues, what happens to trans people?

submitted by peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

More protections would definitely help. I’m not sure if soft discrimination wouldn’t still occur though, like you said, it wouldn’t be perfect. I feel like a lot of employers might just feel like it was easier to pass on someone who was trans and it would be difficult to prove that was the reason.

That' s unfortunately something that happens for everyone, not just trans people. I guess this is something that would probably benefit more the ones already in the job/house than people who are looking. In the sense that if you are living somewhere, come out and they kick you out despite never bringing problems, that would probably be something that could be fought and won. Or if you have always done your job, come out and then fired.

It' s the same with women: in my country, they can' t fire you if you get pregnant, but they can refuse to hire you if you are a woman because "what if she gets pregnant?".

Unfortunately, we can' t really read people' s minds when it comes to these things.

but I feel like there are some of us who genuinely need it to be able to function (probably much, much fewer than identify as trans currently though)

I don' t doubt it, that' s why I don' t want to ban it. I don' t think it' s my place to say whether someone should get surgery or not. It' s their business in the end, and if it really makes them feel better, good for them.

I just think that if gatekeeping needs to be a thing, then it should be done seriously and as objectively as possible. But the way it is now it' s tragic: the stuff you find in the DMS is laughable at best. Most of the points they use to diagnose dysphoria are plain and simple stereotypes (like children wanting to play with toys associated to the other sex). That needs to go, I don' t think it' s beneficial for anyone, "cis" or trans.

Problem is, how can you make it objective? Or as close as objective as possible? If it' s supposed to come after a medical diagnosis, what is the thing that the diagnosis should be based on? I think in the end, everything boils down to what the trans person wants. And if that is what the most important thing is, then why telling a person that their reasons are valid and another that their reasons aren' t. Like, yes, I get it that a person who would be suicidal if not allowed to transition is not the same as one who wants to do it because of sexual arousal. But who am I to tell them that one can do it and another cannot? I think the best thing to do would be to go for a case by case basis and, when we are talking about support groups, try to keep in mind the background of everyone so that someone like you doesn' t end up with someone like Jessica Yaniv.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I just think that if gatekeeping needs to be a thing, then it should be done seriously and as objectively as possible. But the way it is now it' s tragic: the stuff you find in the DMS is laughable at best. Most of the points they use to diagnose dysphoria are plain and simple stereotypes (like children wanting to play with toys associated to the other sex). That needs to go, I don' t think it' s beneficial for anyone, "cis" or trans.

I almost feel like in order to really have it be unbiased we’d almost have to get to gender abolition. It’s hard to not making femininity or masculinity a part of it at all because those things occur together so much especially in younger trans people. I know from my own gatekeeping experiences that the fact I was feminine and could pass without much effort made gatekeepers much more agreeable to approving medical intervention. Me wanting to be a girl intuitively made sense to them I feel like. I’m 100% sure that I would have been treated differently if I had been more masculine physically, or taller, or behaved less stereotypically feminine even if I was just as dysphoric. I guess it also gets into questions about whether gatekeepers should evaluate what your quality of life would be if you transition. Maybe it would be possible to train gatekeepers to be more gender critical, but it’s hard to imagine it wouldn’t influence their decisions at all.

when we are talking about support groups, try to keep in mind the background of everyone so that someone like you doesn' t end up with someone like Jessica Yaniv.

I think separate different types of trans people might help even if it’s invalidating to some. Also, I feel like if we were taught we needed to keep our guard up the same way it is around men that would help. I think it’s a problem that all trans experience get reduced to one thing so your supposed to be able to relate to them and their supposed to be like you and that makes it where you don’t understand they might not be safe.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, as long as gender exists, bias will be present. Without gender only the ones with body dysphoria would be interested in transition to begin with.

I am not sure about the evaluation of the quality of your life after transition: it is a good idea in theory, but in the end I think that what is more important is simply be honest with the person who seeks the treatment. The gatekeepers don' t necessarily have to be GC, that would be bias in the other sense and I don' t think it would be objective either. They just have to be frankly blunt about what the person is about to face in the most neutral way possible.

I strongly believe that adults should be allowed to do whatever they want to themselves, and that, unfortunately, includes things that could be dangerous. But I can' t help but find it incredibly irritating to decide something about your own body and then have a bunch of people you don' t know telling you that for your own good it would be better to not do it. Especially if they hold power over you (aka, they can legally stop you from doing it). It' s the same for things like hysterectomies, and I am not a fan of voluntary hysterectomies (the ones that are done not because the patients need them but because the patients want them) either.

In general, I think that people should accept the consequences of their own actions: if you are not forced to do something, you were given all the possible informations against it, you weren' t encouraged to do it but left to your own opinions and after doing it you regret it... you should accept that you made a mistake and that it was your own decision. And then try to adjust to your new situation.

Things aren' t like that at the moment, though: it' s way too common to hear that trans people thought that their life was going to be fabolous after the surgery because everyone, doctors included, told them as such, and when reality bites in they realize that they were lied to. With a better medical iter this wouldn' t happen. I think it would help both the patients and the doctors. As it is now, I hope many trans people and many detransitioners sue the hell out of them and win. I work in medical care, and the way these doctors are acting, minimizing the risks and the success and treating surgery (not just the transition type, but in general any kind of cosmetic surgery) as not that big of a deal is disgusting. It' s shameful that these doctors and medical professionists are sacrificing ethics and the only thing you should have in your mind (the well-being of your patient) in order to get money and/or headpats. I don' t excuse the ones who do it out of fear of being cancelled/fired either: cosmetic surgery doesn' t work in the same way as life-saving surgery, doctors in that branch can refuse a patient (Hell, doctors in life-saving surgeries fields can refuse patients for ethical reasons, the ones who work in cosmetic surgery can do it with even fewer issues), so if they do it despite not thinking it' s the best thing to do, they are jerks.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful response! I feel like you may just be more distrusting of gatekeeping in general than I am.

It' s the same for things like hysterectomies, and I am not a fan of voluntary hysterectomies (the ones that are done not because the patients need them but because the patients want them) either.

I’m like very pro-reproductive rights and I feel like women should be able to make those choices no questions asked. I guess I usually feel differently about transition surgeries because, at least how things where when I transition, those things would give you the ability to change documents. I just don’t want people who aren’t safe to be in women’s spaces. Maybe I should rethink if it wouldn’t affect that, but I did mention worrying about support spaces a little.

Things aren' t like that at the moment, though: it' s way too common to hear that trans people thought that their life was going to be fabolous after the surgery because everyone, doctors included, told them as such, and when reality bites in they realize that they were lied to. With a better medical iter this wouldn' t happen. I think it would help both the patients and the doctors. As it is now, I hope many trans people and many detransitioners sue the hell out of them and win. I work in medical care, and the way these doctors are acting, minimizing the risks and the success and treating surgery (not just the transition type, but in general any kind of cosmetic surgery) as not that big of a deal is disgusting. It' s shameful that these doctors and medical professionists are sacrificing ethics and the only thing you should have in your mind (the well-being of your patient) in order to get money and/or headpats. I don' t excuse the ones who do it out of fear of being cancelled/fired either: cosmetic surgery doesn' t work in the same way as life-saving surgery, doctors in that branch can refuse a patient (Hell, doctors in life-saving surgeries fields can refuse patients for ethical reasons, the ones who work in cosmetic surgery can do it with even fewer issues), so if they do it despite not thinking it' s the best thing to do, they are jerks.

I hope doctors get sued too. Reading a lot of the horror stories online it seems like they often aren’t giving realistic expectations. I wonder if more surgeons or doctors who aren’t as good are entering this areas because there is money to be made. Like everything just became so affirmation focused in the last decade or so and I think it creates a warped view of how your life will actually be for many people. Also, internet communities reinforce that. I think these things can help, but actually being comfortably integrated into the world is like the biggest thing I feel like, and that’s not something that medical treatments can usually deliver by themselves. Also, the people who say trans genitals are exactly the same are hurting trans people I feel like because they may be setting them up for disappointment.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I feel like you may just be more distrusting of gatekeeping in general than I am.

I am not distrusting of gatekeeping, it' s definitely a good idea. I am distrusting of people, especially the ones who are in power. Gatekeeping doesn' t exist in a vacuum, people would have to delieate the rules of it and other people would be the ones putting in action the process. Too many individuals involved for it to be something that could work: humans ruin everything, even good ideas.

The concept of gatekeeping exists to avoid letting someone ruin their own life. But I am of the idea that everyone should be free to do what they want, even if that means ruining their life. I think it' s better that a person chooses what to do, even if that means making a mistake, then letting someone else making that decision for them. Plus, as I said, people in power are never neutral of unbiased: they are all either seeking a way to get their own benefits or to push an agenda. I think it would be better for a person to seek their own benefits and agenda then being a tool in someone else' s hands.

If gatekeeping were indeed a neutral process, I would probably be more open to it. But it can' t be, because people will never be neutral.

I’m like very pro-reproductive rights and I feel like women should be able to make those choices no questions asked. I guess I usually feel differently about transition surgeries because, at least how things where when I transition, those things would give you the ability to change documents. I just don’t want people who aren’t safe to be in women’s spaces. Maybe I should rethink if it wouldn’t affect that, but I did mention worrying about support spaces a little.

But would you feel the same if documents either weren' t changed or were changed in a way that didn' t make women' s spaces more dangerous? I agree that this is the crux of the matter, and yes, if you could keep out dangerous people who are using transition just to hurt women, then gatekeeping would definitely be better. But that too isn' t a perfect science: some abusers are way smarter than the gatekeepers who would analyse them.

You' re right that reproductive rights, in the end, don' t have the same issues that transitioning brings: if a woman wants a hysterectomy, she' s not hurting, directly or potentially, anyone. However, I am not a fan of surgeries that are not done to fix a medical problem in general. I just really dislike the idea of going under surgery because you want to and not because you need to, and with "need to" I mean having a physical issue that can be proven and measurable. And I dislike the idea that spread in the past few years that surgery is just not that big of a deal. That includes hysterectomies, they aren' t an exception just because I am pro-body autonomy and reproductive rights. I am not trying to ban those surgeries and I would never dream of fighting against them: I just don' t like them and the attitude lots of supporters have.

I hope doctors get sued too. Reading a lot of the horror stories online it seems like they often aren’t giving realistic expectations. I wonder if more surgeons or doctors who aren’t as good are entering this areas because there is money to be made. Like everything just became so affirmation focused in the last decade or so and I think it creates a warped view of how your life will actually be for many people. Also, internet communities reinforce that. I think these things can help, but actually being comfortably integrated into the world is like the biggest thing I feel like, and that’s not something that medical treatments can usually deliver by themselves. Also, the people who say trans genitals are exactly the same are hurting trans people I feel like because they may be setting them up for disappointment.

Agreed. You can' t force social acceptance on people, and the way the trans community is behaving is not helping at all in the long run. I think it' s just going to create resentment and distrust: forcing someone to like you is never going to make anyone actually like you. Everyone who felt victimized by this attitude will revolt the second they can, and the ones who don' t care about the issue are just going to take the side that seems like it' s winning.

As for the attitude doctors and TRAs have about surgery and the life after transition, I think that some people are just so much into the idea that they are unable to recognize the reality of things. Others give me a "misery loves company" vibes.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You’ve thought about this a lot. :)

Gatekeeping can’t ever really be perfect, but maybe it could be good enough to help.

But would you feel the same if documents either weren' t changed or were changed in a way that didn' t make women' s spaces more dangerous?

I’d feel a lot better about it.

But that too isn' t a perfect science: some abusers are way smarter than the gatekeepers who would analyse them.

That’s true, sadly. There was more gatekeeping years back, but there were still abusers who managed to move through that system.

However, I am not a fan of surgeries that are not done to fix a medical problem in general. I just really dislike the idea of going under surgery because you want to and not because you need to, and with "need to" I mean having a physical issue that can be proven and measurable. And I dislike the idea that spread in the past few years that surgery is just not that big of a deal. That includes hysterectomies, they aren' t an exception just because I am pro-body autonomy and reproductive rights. I am not trying to ban those surgeries and I would never dream of fighting against them: I just don' t like them and the attitude lots of supporters have.

I understand feeling that way about elective surgery. I’m sure I would too if I like I wasn’t like I was and it’s difficult to imagine doing anything like that now. It’s sort of crazy when you think about it because your body works, but people still have reasons for wanting them even when it’s not something like dysphoria. Sometimes I wonder if maybe some therapy or something before some elective surgeries even that weren’t gender related just so they could establish it wasn’t a dysmorphia thing?

You can' t force social acceptance on people, and the way the trans community is behaving is not helping at all in the long run. I think it' s just going to create resentment and distrust: forcing someone to like you is never going to make anyone actually like you. Everyone who felt victimized by this attitude will revolt the second they can, and the ones who don' t care about the issue are just going to take the side that seems like it' s winning.

Agree. It will hurt us all eventually. It’s painful to watch it happen.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You’ve thought about this a lot. :)

LOL, I have been thinking about the issues with transitioning since I peaked: it was 4 years ago, it is a long time to think about stuff.

I have been thinking about the issues with the medical community since I started college and realized I was going to be part of that community: that' s even longer than the aformentioned 4 years.

And to be perfectly honest, I have been thinking about the issues with humans for even longer than that! :P

Gatekeeping can’t ever really be perfect, but maybe it could be good enough to help.

Definitely: like everything else, humans control everything, so the only thing we can do is hoping that the ones in charge can make it better by being a bit more objective. I am not optimistic, I don' t see people starting to be better any time soon. But I guess everything is possible.

Sometimes I wonder if maybe some therapy or something before some elective surgeries even that weren’t gender related just so they could establish it wasn’t a dysmorphia thing?

It could definitely help. And yes, for non-gender dysphoria related things as well. All the people who get cosmetic surgery give the impression of being in desperate need of talking to someone.