Racism

submitted by Death_By_Democracy from self.AskSaidIt

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[–]HugodeCrevellier 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Some of it by accident , some of it on purpose, but the fact remains that the American Nations were essentially wiped out.

[–]Musky 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

Sure, but they weren't genocided by the white man. Genocide is a deliberate action and Cocoliztli, wasn't the native name for some disease from the Old World, it's thought to have been caused by indigenous hemorrhagic fevers and the deaths were exacerbated by a mega drought at the time.

Surprisingly the number of natives killed in direct military action was quite small.

The Indian wars under the government of the United States have been more than 40 in number. They have cost the lives of about 19,000 white men, women and children, including those killed in individual combats, and the lives of about 30,000 Indians. The actual number of killed and wounded Indians must be very much higher than the number given ... Fifty percent additional would be a safe estimate.[76]

[–]HugodeCrevellier 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

When you force someone into a situation against their will, into reservations, concentration camps, prisons, etc., if they then die ... by whatever means ... you're the one responsible for their death. It's actually surprising to me that the prisoners in prisons, where rapes, murders, etc., seem to be considered normal(!?), don't sue these institutions for anything/everything that happens to them ... but that's another issue. The point is that, there's no avoiding it, the 'wretched refuse' of other continents, the lowest classes and the criminals, which are the people that went to the Americas, are responsible for the genocide, and replacement, of the American Nations, the actual/ethnic Americans.

[–]Musky 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

The first reservation wasn't created until 1758, long after the collapse of the native population. The continent was still mostly open during the indigenous population collapse. It was a great big world with lots of places to run to, to quote a line from Tom Petty. Prisons weren't that big of a thing either back then either.

The idea that white people genocided the Indians isn't really supported by the facts. We sure as shit didn't help their cause any, but that one just one relatively small part of it.

Speaking of racism, and to tie this into the OP, constantly blaming and denigrating white people is a type of racism we see commonly on Reddit, and comments like mine refuting the popular narrative would likely catch me a ban there. It may be counterintuitive at first blush, but Saidit is one of the most accepting and welcoming places I've ever been to. Sure there's nazis and we make fun of trannies and niggers a lot, but the only active admin is a guy who wants to be a girl fox and there's a lot of fags here. There'd probably even be black people here if they knew how to use computers. But everyone gets along amazingly for the most part. We are a shining example of inclusivity.

[–]HugodeCrevellier 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

We can't seriously hold that the virtual extinction of the Americans is unrelated to the invasion of new arrivals to the continent, can we?

One way or another, we must agree that the American Nations were essentially wiped out. Now, whether this was mostly by accident or mostly on purpose doesn't really matter for my point: They were replaced by other ethnicities, foreigners, from other continents.

This, now, requires, in trying to concoct some kind of new semi-coherent nationality/ethnicity, the imposition of the pretence that all ethnicities are the same or, better yet, that there's no such thing as ethnic differences ... nor ethnicities.

[–]Musky 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

We can't seriously hold that the virtual extinction of the Americans is unrelated to the invasion of new arrivals to the continent, can we?

It is not outside the realm of possibility the indigenous population would have collapsed on its own anyways since the major cause of mortality was from a locally based disease. I don't see the Hundred Years War ever blamed for the plague.

I am not sure though. I'm inclined to assume the colonization played some role but that's coming from a common background of being told my entire life the Europeans wiped out Indians. It is possible, however, that is simply a white guilt / noble savage narrative. I don't know enough to say without more research but most of the deaths were from an "Act of God," -- or 'Nature' if you prefer, the hemorrhagic fever -- which may be at least partially responsible for the attitude of the time that it was Divine Right to conquer and rule over the new land. If you're invading and the natives simply die to make way for you that might certainly seem to a religious person as if God willed it.

One way or another, we must agree that the American Nations were essentially wiped out

As they existed, sure, although there's still 10 million natives today. That's the highest number in modern history. Would a modern day native even want to go back to the old way of living if it was possible? Not that there weren't some really appealing aspects to that sort of life, it's still pretty much like camping all the time.

This, now, requires, in trying to concoct some kind of new semi-coherent nationality/ethnicity, the imposition of the pretence that all ethnicities are the same or, better yet, that there's no such thing as ethnic differences ... nor ethnicities.

Yeah, the biology of race became taboo after WW2 and we have danced around the topic ever since. It's rather ridiculous.

[–]rki 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As they existed, sure, although there's still 10 million natives today. That's the highest number in modern history. Would a modern day native even want to go back to the old way of living if it was possible? Not that there weren't some really appealing aspects to that sort of life, it's still pretty much like camping all the time.

We have some data on that, actually. Taos Pueblo has about 2,000 community members, and per the website (and Wiki which says its data is from 2011) 150 people choose to live the old ways at the pueblo. When we were there in 2020, it was just five families choosing to continue living that way.

[–]HugodeCrevellier 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The answer to the white guilt / noble savage narrative is probably not some counter-narrative denying the genocide of the indigenous Americans, but an attempt to actual historical accuracy and to as objective as possible an understanding. You do seem to try to do that more than most, I must say. This, of course, is hard work, tedious, difficult and imperfect ... and one may not like the conclusion ... ergo the popularity of merely slinging self-serving narratives at each other. All that being said, it's basically certain that the invasion of the Americas by foreign populaces played a decisive role in the virtual extinction of the original Americans, and is not just coincidental.

[–]Musky 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It simply wasn't a genocide when the native Americans mostly died off from a native illness. If you have anything compelling to dispute that, I'm all ears.

virtual extinction

240k at its lowest. We wouldn't call that near extinction if it were animals we were talking about.

[–]HugodeCrevellier 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

At this point, you're merely spewing nonsense ... 'I am disappoint'. :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_removal

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/01/world/european-colonization-climate-change-trnd/index.html

[–]Musky 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Is this Socks? Cause he never reads his own links either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_genocide:

Other scholars and historians dispute the accuracy of the term "genocide" to describe what occurred in California, as well as the blame which has been placed directly on the federal government and the state government of California,[1] pointing to the fact that disease was the primary factor in the depopulation of California Indians and arguing that mass violence was undertaken primarily by settlers and that the state and federal governments did not establish a policy of physically killing all Indians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears:

There has been debate among scholars about whether Indian removal and the Trail of Tears were genocidal acts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_removal

According to historians Paul R. Bartrop and Steven L. Jacobs, however, Jackson's policies do not meet the criteria for physical or cultural genocide

And finally, CNN is too biased to bother reading.

[–]StillLessons 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. While the effect might have happened anyway with the European settlers carrying new strains, it is well documented that the Europeans were completely aware of the disease issue, and were intentionally using smallpox in particular as the biological weapon of its day, to the greatest extent they could figure out how to contrive.

Again, this might have happened whether they tried to do it or not, but to highlight "accidentally" the way Musky has is incorrect. At least some portion of the disease spread was absolutely intentional.