Racism

submitted by Death_By_Democracy from self.AskSaidIt

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[–]HugodeCrevellier 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

We can't seriously hold that the virtual extinction of the Americans is unrelated to the invasion of new arrivals to the continent, can we?

One way or another, we must agree that the American Nations were essentially wiped out. Now, whether this was mostly by accident or mostly on purpose doesn't really matter for my point: They were replaced by other ethnicities, foreigners, from other continents.

This, now, requires, in trying to concoct some kind of new semi-coherent nationality/ethnicity, the imposition of the pretence that all ethnicities are the same or, better yet, that there's no such thing as ethnic differences ... nor ethnicities.

[–]Musky 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

We can't seriously hold that the virtual extinction of the Americans is unrelated to the invasion of new arrivals to the continent, can we?

It is not outside the realm of possibility the indigenous population would have collapsed on its own anyways since the major cause of mortality was from a locally based disease. I don't see the Hundred Years War ever blamed for the plague.

I am not sure though. I'm inclined to assume the colonization played some role but that's coming from a common background of being told my entire life the Europeans wiped out Indians. It is possible, however, that is simply a white guilt / noble savage narrative. I don't know enough to say without more research but most of the deaths were from an "Act of God," -- or 'Nature' if you prefer, the hemorrhagic fever -- which may be at least partially responsible for the attitude of the time that it was Divine Right to conquer and rule over the new land. If you're invading and the natives simply die to make way for you that might certainly seem to a religious person as if God willed it.

One way or another, we must agree that the American Nations were essentially wiped out

As they existed, sure, although there's still 10 million natives today. That's the highest number in modern history. Would a modern day native even want to go back to the old way of living if it was possible? Not that there weren't some really appealing aspects to that sort of life, it's still pretty much like camping all the time.

This, now, requires, in trying to concoct some kind of new semi-coherent nationality/ethnicity, the imposition of the pretence that all ethnicities are the same or, better yet, that there's no such thing as ethnic differences ... nor ethnicities.

Yeah, the biology of race became taboo after WW2 and we have danced around the topic ever since. It's rather ridiculous.

[–]rki 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As they existed, sure, although there's still 10 million natives today. That's the highest number in modern history. Would a modern day native even want to go back to the old way of living if it was possible? Not that there weren't some really appealing aspects to that sort of life, it's still pretty much like camping all the time.

We have some data on that, actually. Taos Pueblo has about 2,000 community members, and per the website (and Wiki which says its data is from 2011) 150 people choose to live the old ways at the pueblo. When we were there in 2020, it was just five families choosing to continue living that way.

[–]HugodeCrevellier 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The answer to the white guilt / noble savage narrative is probably not some counter-narrative denying the genocide of the indigenous Americans, but an attempt to actual historical accuracy and to as objective as possible an understanding. You do seem to try to do that more than most, I must say. This, of course, is hard work, tedious, difficult and imperfect ... and one may not like the conclusion ... ergo the popularity of merely slinging self-serving narratives at each other. All that being said, it's basically certain that the invasion of the Americas by foreign populaces played a decisive role in the virtual extinction of the original Americans, and is not just coincidental.

[–]Musky 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It simply wasn't a genocide when the native Americans mostly died off from a native illness. If you have anything compelling to dispute that, I'm all ears.

virtual extinction

240k at its lowest. We wouldn't call that near extinction if it were animals we were talking about.

[–]HugodeCrevellier 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

At this point, you're merely spewing nonsense ... 'I am disappoint'. :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_removal

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/01/world/european-colonization-climate-change-trnd/index.html

[–]Musky 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Is this Socks? Cause he never reads his own links either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_genocide:

Other scholars and historians dispute the accuracy of the term "genocide" to describe what occurred in California, as well as the blame which has been placed directly on the federal government and the state government of California,[1] pointing to the fact that disease was the primary factor in the depopulation of California Indians and arguing that mass violence was undertaken primarily by settlers and that the state and federal governments did not establish a policy of physically killing all Indians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears:

There has been debate among scholars about whether Indian removal and the Trail of Tears were genocidal acts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_removal

According to historians Paul R. Bartrop and Steven L. Jacobs, however, Jackson's policies do not meet the criteria for physical or cultural genocide

And finally, CNN is too biased to bother reading.

[–]HugodeCrevellier 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

In an apparent desperate attempt to avoid the objective truth, you're now trying to get pedantic about the accuracy of the term 'genocide'. Right! And because of this, the debate has now gone off into some pointless tangent. Look, no matter how you twist it, you simply can't avoid the demonstrable (and one would expect uncontroversial) fact that, as Hillary Clinton might say: 'We came, we saw, they died'. Period.

[–]Musky 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I quoted your own sources 🤦‍♀️

[–]HugodeCrevellier 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As I'm pointing at the moon, you're examining my finger.

[–]Musky 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

M-O-O-N. That spells Tom Collins.