Helen Joyce compares transgender dogmas to a cultish, hyper-intolerant religion

submitted by ceck from self.whatever

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[–]ID10T 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I'll break it down in a way perhaps you can understand.

There is no gender that is different than sex.

Trans ideology started with the concept that gender is your feeling of what sex you are, or should be, potentially different than your physical sex. Then it moved the goalposts to saying the mantra "transwomen are women", which states that if someone's gender is woman, they should be treated as if their sex is female in all aspects of life. Any non-woman hating, rational person should vehemently disagree with that.

I also disagree with trans ideology's first postulation, that you can "feel" like a different sex than what you are, simply because you cannot feel like anything you are not. You may believe you aren't in the correct body, aka dysphoria, but that is a mental issue, not a reality. No trans woman can ever know what it feels like to actually be a woman, or vice versa.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I think I see the problem. You think you're arguing against a very specific position. You think that trans people are an organized group, and they've created something called "trans ideology," and "trans ideology" takes specific stances on sex and gender, full of postulates and theorems and proofs, and that it's dogmatic, almost Scriptural, to them.

But that's not true. Trans people argue with each other all the time over these issues. There really is no unified consensus.

All that the vast majority of them really agree on is: "I want to be treated as the gender that doesn't match my biological sex. If I'm treated that way, I'll feel happy. If I'm not treated that way, I'll feel deeply uncomfortable."

People are freaking the fuck out over that, and it gets pretty hysterial. You're basically saying it's going to do tremendous damage to women everywhere if someone born male says "my pronouns are she/her" and I say "okie dokie." And that's... not realistic.

[–]ID10T 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

The part agreed upon "I want to be treated as the gender that doesn't match my biological sex" has led to all the aforementioned insanity. That feeling cannot be enshrined as a right as it results in the destruction of women as a protected class.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Well, more fundamentally, it can't be enshrined as a legal right because it violates the First Amendment. I'm a cis man; you have the right to ignore my preferred pronouns and call me a girl; there's basically no way to change that without repealing the First Amendment and abandoning the idea of free speech.

But I do believe most trans people completely understand that. They want people to voluntarily call them by their preferred pronouns, not to have the government force them to do it through threats of imprisonment and violence.

[–]ID10T 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Are you aware of the laws that have been passed that force employers to comply with pronoun requests? Such as https://www.fox5ny.com/news/nyc-use-transgender-pronouns-or-face-fines

I don't think this would hold up constitutionally, but IANAL. This includes ridiculous neo-pronouns.

What about the Lia Thomas situation? What about USA boxing's decision to allow men to compete against women? Hormones are hardly the only thing that makes men much tougher in a fight than women. Hand size and strength, skeletal structure, etc.

What about Biden's administration dismantling Title IX protections by forcing colleges to admin men in women's sports? https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/06/politics/title-ix-transgender-student-athletes-biden-rule/index.html

The list goes on and on, but it comes down to, if you support legislating trans rights to the point that trans women should be able to enter into women's protected spaces (both physical and metaphorical), you really just hate women. It's blatant myisogyny.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Are you aware of the laws that have been passed that force employers to comply with pronoun requests? Such as https://www.fox5ny.com/news/nyc-use-transgender-pronouns-or-face-fines

Well, going back to my example, you have the perfect right to ignore my preferred pronouns and call me a girl in a bar or on the Internet or whatever, but if we're co-workers, you can't be stopping by my desk every day to say "What's up, little girl?" when I've made it clear to you and HR that I want that to stop. That would give me actionable grounds for a harassment lawsuit. People are allowed a reasonable expectation of a non-hostile work environment.

What about Biden's administration dismantling Title IX protections by forcing colleges to admin men in women's sports? https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/06/politics/title-ix-transgender-student-athletes-biden-rule/index.html

Did you read the link? It says that the Biden administration proposed a rule where colleges can reject biologically male athletes from women's sports, but they can't do it categorically. Rather, they have to take it on a case-by-case basis.

That's not exactly tyranny.

The list goes on and on, but it comes down to, if you support legislating trans rights to the point that trans women should be able to enter into women's protected spaces (both physical and metaphorical), you really just hate women. It's blatant myisogyny.

I can't say I agree with that. I prefer third-wave feminism to fourth-wave feminism.

It's really weird, honestly - pre-feminist thought said "Men and women both need protected spaces. Separate spheres. Men work and women cook, and women need to stay out of the worksites and men need to stay out of the kitchen."

Then by third-wave feminism, we were at "Men and women are equals. They don't need protected spaces and shouldn't have them. Public life should be one shared space."

And then fourth-wave feminism changed the narrative to "Men should never be allowed protected spaces, but women must be allowed to have them."

To me, that's both regressive and misandrist. And I don't think that opinion makes me a "blatant misogynist."

[–]ID10T 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

What's up little girl is totally different than having to call someone xir, or bunself. Fuck that.

We should absolutely reject males in women's sports categorically. Having any men in women's sports is harmful.

You think it's ok for a man to show his genitals to a young girl in a women's changing room? You are a blatant misogynist, and also an evil pervert.

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

What's up little girl is totally different than having to call someone xir, or bunself. Fuck that.

I'd struggle with neopronouns, for sure, and probably just speak about that co-worker awkwardly, substituting their name for every pronoun.

But neopronouns are very rare. 99.9% of the time, they just want you to use the pronoun that matches their clothes instead of what's under their clothes.

We should absolutely reject males in women's sports categorically. Having any men in women's sports is harmful.

Nah. If I got on the field with the U.S. National Women's Soccer Team, there wouldn't be any harm done. They'd just run circles around my sweaty middle-aged body until I tapped out and sat on a bench and drank Gatorade like my life depended on it.

Women want to be protected against men who are too strong to compete against. So it makes sense to take it case-by-case: "No, you're too much competition for this league" versus "Fine, you suck anyway."

You think it's ok for a man to show his genitals to a young girl in a women's changing room? You are a blatant misogynist, and also an evil pervert.

Why do you think it's okay for a man to show his genitals to a young boy in a men's changing room?

[–]ID10T 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Responses like yours are why I can no longer consider myself a leftist. I mean you really need those last two explained to you? C'mon...

[–]Hematomato 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I don't consider myself a leftist, either. And I wouldn't say I need anything "explained" to me.

I don't have strong opinions on the sports issue, because - look - there's a lot I don't get about sports. Like, take the Lia Thomas controversy. You've got thousands of people who want a worthless little trophy for being the fastest person to move through water. It's a completely pointless skill with no use whatsoever, but it's super important to thousands of people.

And in this contest, no one's making any contact with each other. They're all racing against a clock. But some of them are saying "But it's really important that I win the trophy for fastest person to move through water who doesn't have a dick, and now they're treating it like it's a trophy for fastest person to move through water who wears a dress sometimes."

And, it's like - seriously - I just don't care. I guess I'll just leave it to the swimmers themselves to decide, because it's all so fucking pointless I'd feel embarrassed to have an opinion.

As for the locker room issue - yeah, sorry, but I just don't think children are emotionally or developmentally damaged by seeing adults change their clothes. That's just weird Puritan bullshit, really.