The logic of masks...

submitted by PencilPusher55 from self.whatever

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[–]StillLessons 10 insightful - 4 fun10 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 4 fun -  (36 children)

Masks are actually a derivative debate to the more important question of what is this "killer bug!" tm we are supposed to be fighting. I remember back in January looking at China and thinking not enough people were dying relative to the response being taken. At the time, I thought China was downfaking the numbers, but now - with the global response in play - I see it was the other way around. The numbers of people dying of this disease are in fact low, and our response is completely and totally out of proportion.

About 11800 people have died of Covid so far in the US (I use the 6% non-comorbidity multiplied by today's CDC death toll). Other than that, our "Covid death toll" comes from a combination of multiple conditions aggravated by Covid. Add to this the overwhelming correlation between Covid death and age, and it becomes impossible to justify the societal reaction we have permitted to this disease.

11800 is a bump in mortality - a bad "flu-like illness" - nothing more. More people than this are dying, but basically the deaths are from a combination of old age (we still haven't found the cure to that, imagine!) and a lot of conditions we as a society have been aware of as we watch them grow for decades (diabetes, heart disease, obesity, etc). These people are not healthy. A new bug comes along and it provides the marginal difference that takes what was a serious condition and tips it into a mortal condition. But the primary problem is not Covid. It's the underlying conditions. And newsflash: old people die!

Now, back to masks: the premise for mask use is to "stop the spread". Covid is a "flu-like illness". It is a coronavirus. You know what else coronaviruses cause? The common cold. I have lived my entire life by the joke, "Yeah, next he's going to claim to cure the common cold..." The reason that's a joke is that cold viruses are insanely well-adapted to live within the human herd, they are super contagious, and they are relatively harmless. Well, now we have a "cold-like virus" that is not so harmless. But it is still insanely well adapted to living within our herd, and it is as contagious as all its cousins. They keep hyping "the new cases!!!!" Seriously? We should look at "the new cases" of the common cold each year. Guess what? There are crazy numbers of the cold. Coronaviruses are highly contagious. This is not a news flash. Mortality and morbidity is all that matters, and more new "cases" while holding mortality and morbidity equal (which is clear again in the statistics) is actually the definition of decreased rate of mortality and morbidity for covid-19.

Masks, meanwhile, are the equivalent of fighting the tide. They are futile. Look at the numbers in different parts of the world where greater and lesser measures are being taken to "fight the virus". You will find zero correlation between the efforts being made and the illness and death resulting. Many areas fighting the hardest have the worst statistics. Clearly what we are doing makes no difference whatsoever to the virus's spread. Covid is laughing at our efforts.

But what are our efforts doing? They are destroying our human society. They are having horrific social effects, leading to many many many more deaths that would not happen in the absence of this social insanity. One among many examples: domestic abuse is through the roof right now.

Covid is a tiny bump in death in the general population combined with being an accessory to death from a variety of known conditions we have been avoiding dealing with for decades (these are basically a side-effect of industrialized civilization). The response to Covid, however, Holy Shit! This includes masks, which brings us back to the point of this thread. This response is killing thousands of people of all ages, and killing them in very cruel ways. It is also destroying us spiritually, every single one of us. First Do No Harm has been completely thrown out the window.

This has to end. We are participating in societal suicide in reaction to a ghost.

[–]DoubleReverse 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (35 children)

About 11800 people have died of Covid so far in the US (I use the 6% non-comorbidity multiplied by today's CDC death toll).

That's not how co-morbidity works

This has to end. We are participating in societal suicide in reaction to a ghost.

Wearing a mask on your face so that you don't kill people is the new white genocide

[–]StillLessons 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

Co-morbidity: I used shorthand. I acknowledge that Covid is a contributing factor in the other deaths, but CDCs own numbers said that of the "covid deaths" only 6% occurred in the absence of other conditions. What's your point?

White genocide: Interesting that you brought race into this. Nowhere in my comment do I even remotely mention or refer to race. Everything I said I argue without regard to race, sex, ethnicity, or any of the other group identities that are so popular these days. The only split I will acknowledge is that I am talking about within the United States. The Covid situation in countries with less-developed medical care is different, and some of what I argue here does not apply the same in other countries.

Inserting race where it is not applicable is only divisive and furthers even more the societal suicide to which I refer.

Wearing a mask so that you don't kill people: This is precisely the spiritual destruction I am talking about. Thank you for giving such a great example. Too many people now look at other human beings and see a mortal disease-carrying threat. The key to our survival and success as a species for thousands of years has been cooperation. When humans cooperate, we are unbeatable. When we think another person is a vehicle to kill us, however, we dissolve into uncivilized chaos. Unmasked people are not lethal. We are your brothers and sisters.

[–]DoubleReverse 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (33 children)

What's your point?

Those people still died because of covid

White genocide: Interesting that you brought race into this.

My point is that you make everything out to be like a new holocaust. Racial equity is white genocide. Wearing a mask is societal suicide. It just devalues your outrage. If you equate a minor inconvenience to the death of your entire race, what does that say about everything else you complain about?

[–]StillLessons 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (32 children)

New holocaust: In many arguments, I would agree with you. But the scale of our response to this pathogen is the exception that proves the rule. The response of TPTB is now literally affecting every human being on the planet. This is not about a "minor inconvenience". It's about the re-orientation of the expectations of every living human being. Like I said, I agree many situations become exaggerated. But this one is observably an attack on the universal human experience. The Covid response is like nothing I've ever heard of, either today or anywhere in history.

[–]DoubleReverse 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (31 children)

I'm sorry that being sanitary and wearing a piece of cloth on your face are so upsetting to you, but the alternative is millions and millions of real, actual deaths.

[–]StillLessons 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (29 children)

If that were true, there would have been millions and millions of real, actual deaths before people started wearing masks.

You believe masks are a miracle block to this virus. I don't see the numbers that remotely support that supposition. We do in fact have some relative control cases in our current moment. Sweden stayed out of the "mandate" business. People use their own judgment to what precautions to take. Where's the mass slaughter? Looks kind of comparable to the rest of us to my eye.

Edit to add: This is also not a partisan issue. The claim you make above about "millions and millions" is similar to the rhetoric from both sides of the aisle. The left says we must keep enforcing this social climate to prevent millions and millions of deaths. But the right is no better. Trump says well, now we're okay, but the lockdowns he contributed to prevented millions and millions of deaths. Both sides are wrong. This bug has never shown itself to be that lethal. It kills predominantly the old and the sick. There are a lot of pathogens that do this. Covid has merely joined a family of bugs which we have called throughout history "illness".

[–]DoubleReverse 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (28 children)

Ok but you still can't come in my store without a mask because I don't want you killing my customers, even if they are old or sick

[–]Zahn 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (27 children)

Then your customers will patronize a business that's not run by an hysterical, hand wringing, moral busy body that embraces fear and hyperbole instead of science and common sense.

[–]DoubleReverse 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (26 children)

Says the guy who denies the advice of health professionals and calls it societal suicide to wear a mask to save lives

[–]JasonCarswellMental Orgy 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Fallacy.