"We had no money, and therefore a man's worth couldn't be measured by it. We valued the exchange of love..." Lakota Sage

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

But her question stays: How did they get along so well for so long ?

And i personally had no problem with some stupid old men dying off finally: Trump, Gates, Fauci, Biden, Pompeo, etc.

What arguments for their so called "leadership" would these guys have if there was no money and no MSM? Right: None.

But they'd be probably be chased out of their tribes beforehand anyway for the Dark Triad being so strong in them.

In smaller societies it is harder to lie all day long, because people are actually watching each other more closely.

[–]ReeferMadness 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

Do you get along with all your family members? Does no one in your family lie? Do you really think you know all your cousins secrets?

The question is "why would anyone believe the claim that they had no internal conflict, especially when there is so much evidence of incredible brutality shown to other tribes?"

Scalping, for example, was done to live victims. Some tribes would also torture prisoners for days until they died to appease their god. Yet we are supposed to believe that these people were morally superior to whites? Sounds like pure racist propaganda to me.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

I didn't claim that. I just mentioned that the question stays, as it still does.

A family without conflict doesn't exist, afaic. But that is not the point here.

Of course they are morally superior to (whoever) because they didn't industrialize and automatize murder and wars because they lacked the technology for this.

And even if they could have done it like the immigrants from Europe i doubt that they actually had done it because of their beliefs.

They also respected their natural environment which our "leaders" tell us to destroy till we can't live in it anymore.

Scalping is a religious thing. You have to respect their culture.

Waterboarding and other CIA-approved torture methods and concentration camps are way worse, imo.

I never read of a concentration camp built by American natives, e.g. .

[–]ReeferMadness 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

i doubt that they actually had done it because of their beliefs.

First off you don't know their beliefs because they did not have a written language. So no books, ho history, no laws. So where did you get this idea that you know what their beliefs were? You were lied to.

If you look at known behavior ie the fact that the Soux used the guns and horses they got from settlers to wage a genocide on every tribe within riding distance, you can clearly see that what you believe is utter bullshit.

I didn't claim that.

You didn't use those words but that is what you are claiming when you go on and on with your bullshit beliefs about how they wouldn't do the evil things white people did. Why not? What evidence is there, because everything I see points to the opposite conclusion.

That they didn't doesn't mean that they wouldn't if they could.

Not having the ability to do bad things doesn't make you morally superior.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Not destroying your environment does make you morally superior.

And the is a lot of written stuff about their beliefs. Just not from themselves.

Because the European immigrants exterminated them for most parts very quickly obviously you can't read all about their beliefs but you can at least read something.

This presupposes you want to.

[–]ReeferMadness 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Not doing something you have no power to do is not a reflection of your character.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The environmental argument stands anyway.

[–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

They raped and destroyed the environment every time they got the chance. And why wouldn't they? Humans are a destructive force towards Mother Nature. They grow out of control, like a bacteria on a petri dish, until they consume all available food and then starve. Only reason that didn't happen to us is because of our amazing technology that keeps feeding us.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    They're not called "Indians", they are Native Americans. That's a racist term. Pretty much cements the idea that your idea of these stone age peoples is frozen half a century in the past or more.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    There have been Native scholars who are actually Native. They've existed ever since assimilation was full blown in the Great Plains. I'll go through my books and name a few in an edit. We can know the opposing viewpoints from different sources, but as another user said, unless we could go back in time and really see it occur, we may not be able to discern full truth.

    I know I won't get my truths from the Christian missionaries and Jesuit priests who have long been the definitive sources on the subject of defeated clan-systems.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Oh my gosh, it shows now, the ignorance! We can't know their customs or beliefs? You are not worth discussing this topic with. I hope any lurkers spend more time studying tribal politics and customs, unlike you.

    [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

    It's because they just murdered the enemy tribes with stone age weapons.

    Well, all but the young women. Those were kidnapped and raped or sold into slavery. Their bones are the only ones missing from the massacre pits.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    You act like every tribe did the same shit their neighbors did, and for the same reasons. You are uneducated on the diverse topic of tribal customs.

    [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

    Humans are assholes. It's in our nature to ruin things and murder each other. No matter where or what era.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    It's in our nature to be influenced and redirected. That is not our inherent nature, and if you believe that it is, you open yourself up to more of the same. Does it work for you?

    [–]Comatoast 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I won't disagree with you. We're very easily led and manipulated to conform to group standards. However, it is in our nature to protect ourselves from potential threats. How a threat is seen can be linked with how a culture is set up to deal with outsiders, but a tribe that ignores the necessity of territory protection wouldn't likely have lasted very long as a tribe in the first place due to other tribes with their own ideals for what they want for their people. Think about starvation, and what may have been done in times of strife. If an outside tribe has food, but refuses to trade for it out of lack of enough of their own resources, there could potentially be a violent situation that arises. We're above animals within the sphere of complex thought, but that just gives more context to what drives us.

    I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on these matters, and until we've got a time machine and a reliable way to observe those various tribes of the Americas we can only rely on the information that is already available.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    This is a much more mature way of viewing the history than what Chipit and others are doing. You are right, we can only look at the sources and attempt to discern truth. None of us were there, but that doesn't mean we should immediately believe the BS the missionaries and priests wrote about them.

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]Chipit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

      Humans are humans the world over. These Native Americans were no better and no worse than any. That is to say, they murdered when they wanted and raped when they could. They took slaves because slaves are awesome. And destroyed the environment when they had the capability to do so.

      This is hardly controversial and is mainstream thought. Pick up an environmental textbook sometime.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

      some tribes murdered and raped whenever they wanted. Quit generalizing.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

      No one is arguing that the red race as a whole was morally pure. Everytime this topic comes up, folks like you come out of the woodwork to sell the same talking points that have been sold for generations. You don't seem to grasp the fact that every tribe was different, and some of them were far more life-affirming than any modern countries. It's strange to see such hatred.

      Yes, some tribes were brutal. Yes, all tribes had gone to war at one point or another. This isn't about who is better or who isn't, it's about looking at the history without a modern-lens, without viewing it through the eyes of the victors.

      [–]Zahn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

      Yet, the way these things are portrayed in modern times is always through such a lopsided lens that always paints a picture of some idyllic paradise lost. Pragmatically speaking, the situation for Native Americans isn't genuinely any better or worse than it was before Euros.

      [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

      I see a mixture of it being a paradise (which it wasn't) and it being a barbaric hell-hole (which it wasn't).

      You don't seem to be grasping what Ephemeral and I are saying.

      [–]Zahn 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

      You don't seem to be grasping what Ephemeral and I are saying.

      I think I do. Though, like I said, practically speaking, when you compare the positives and negatives, Native Americans seem to be in about the same quality of life position as before.

      [–][deleted]  (4 children)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

        You'd get mixed results. They are very divided.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]Zahn 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

          I would add though, the main problem with the Native American situation is the loss of their traditional way of life. It's like they're geared toward that, and don't assimilate well in an economic system. Tribal hierarchy seemed to produce a more desirable social system. Instead of money... hunting, fishing, gathering incentivized existence.

          Now they get paid a stipend every month. Subsidized or free housing, medical, food, and even free college for personal advancement doesn't seem to appeal broadly to them as a reason for existence. So many devolve languishing in substance abuse.

          I've met successful, smart Indians, and at the same time literally driven through reservations, and seen them stumbling drunk on the side of the road, falling and rolling into ditches for a long nap.

          It's a sad state of things. They don't want to go back, but they don't want to go forward either. They have lost their sense of purpose, and that is the biggest loss of all.

          [–]ReeferMadness 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

          No one is "coming out of the woodwork" when they correct your lies. When you say "they were so peaceful before the evil white man came" that is a lie. When you claim that their way of life is better and someone tells you why that's wrong, they are correcting your lie.

          This isn't about who is better or who isn't,

          It is LITERALLY a post claiming natives are better than white people.

          If you don't like the fact that you can't just post blatant lies without people correcting you then go back to reddit where the truth is banned.

          [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

          I like you. You are funny to read.

          [–]Chipit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

          Actually dark triad types did really well, as women find them irresistible. They became chiefs or died trying.