26 year old "girl" abandons transition after learning about autogynephilia theory because he can't convince himself he's the same as actual women anymore.

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[–]FediNetizen 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (15 children)

"pre-everything" and you want to "detransition"? How are you detransitioning when you're changing nothing?

That's almost a semantics thing, though. Clearly this person is just saying that learning about AGP is making them question if they're really a woman.

Often I wonder if men that have transitioned and come across AGP after the fact react negatively because they know the idea hits too close to home. I wonder how many of them would choose a different path if they had the idea introduced early in transition, not later.

[–]jet199 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I remember there was an ask reddit thread along the lines of "what's your secret fetish?" and one of the most common one was wearing women's clothes. A few wokesters asked these guys if the ever thought they might be trans and they each replied "no, it's purely a sexual thing." I think if you talk to men at that point about AGP you might get some success but it's a progressive disorder so if they don't see a problem with it and keep feeding it within a couple of years they'll likely start thinking they are trans even if they knew full well was a fetish before, like Izzard and Jenner.

[–]gendercritfem[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Often I wonder if men that have transitioned and come across AGP after the fact react negatively because they know the idea hits too close to home.

In my experience, they usually react with narcissistic rage. They call you a TERF or a transphobe or whatever, and they deny everything, but they wouldn't get that mad if it didn't hit home. They need to believe that they're really women for their fetish to work, and if they know that they're just men with a fetish, their fantasy falls apart.

[–]kwallio 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

know that they're just men with a fetish, their fantasy falls apart

AGP must be more akin to a mental disorder or psychotic break than a fetish. I guess I just have no idea how male sexuality works but other fetishes don't work like this. A dude with a fetish for literally anything else knows its a fetish and doesn't have a problem with getting off as long as they indulge their fetish.

[–]gendercritfem[S] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's the AGParadox: they have a fetish for being women, but if they acknowledge that it's a fetish, then they have to acknowledge that they're men. Which, paradoxically, means their fetish doesn't work.

[–]FediNetizen 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's a great quote from Alice Dreger's book, Galileo's Middle Finger, which among other topics talks about the harassment campaign conducted against James Bailey for publishing The Man Who Would Be Queen, and how AGP Narc Rage probably played into that harassment -

"There’s a critical difference between autogynephilia and most other sexual orientations: Most other orientations aren’t erotically disrupted simply by being labeled. When you call a typical gay man homosexual, you’re not disturbing his sexual hopes and desires. By contrast, autogynephilia is perhaps best understood as a love that would really rather we didn’t speak its name. The ultimate eroticism of autogynephilia lies in the idea of really becoming or being a woman, not in being a natal male who desires to be a woman."

[–]reluctant_commenter 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

AGP must be more akin to a mental disorder or psychotic break than a fetish. I

People with AGP at the paraphilia-level (strong enough to cause impairment in their lives, as studies measure it) have a high prevalence of personality disorders such as NPD and also other paraphilias (including pedophilia, not a majority but a sizeable minority I think). AGP also seems to require a view of the world in which women are seen as lesser... which goes hand in hand with narcissistic traits, because narcissists believe that some people are lesser and inferior to them.

[–]kwallio 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

When the whole trans thing came into my conciousness I couldn't wrap my head around why someone would want to do this. Eventually I realized for some of them its essentially a degradation/humiliation fetish, and they think being a woman is degrading. Hence the forced femme/sissification thing among so many of them.

[–]Airbus320 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

😮

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Do you have a study on this? I'd like to read more. I've read studies on there being a higher prevalence of dark personality types amongst trans individuals however those were conducted in non-Western countries.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Ok, I'm trying to find better studies but here's a couple of comments I've made in the past about research.

Link 1: https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT/comments/5szv/interesting_meta_article_questioning_whether_this/mlo2

The quote you just described is the exact same common pattern of talking to someone with narcissistic personality disorder (or sometimes other personality disorders). I am not trying to imply that all transgender people have NPD, by observing that. However, it is unsurprising that this pattern of argument occurs, because emerging research suggests that a high proportion of transgender people have at least one personality disorder.

For example: Out of 73 transgender patients receiving SRS, 81% had at least one personality disorder, and 57% had narcissistic personality disorder (at the very least), with higher prevalence among transwomen. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/

Of 87 participants receiving "gender affirming treatments", approx. 50% diagnosed with one or more personality disorders. https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/5/1521

Among transgender people not necessarily receiving SRS: 6% of the trans people in the study diagnosed with one or more personality disorders, compared to 0.37% of cis people in the study. https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/trgh.2019.0029

I find it hard to believe that this pattern of findings could not be related to the style of argumentation we usually see with TRAs.

You might also be interested in the more general finding that individuals who score high on psychopathic traits tend to be friends with people who score a similar level of psychopathic traits-- i.e., people with dark triad traits (psychopathy is just one of the three dark triad traits) do have some tendency to flock together: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/60ce/just_a_short_little_rant_as_to_why_im_pissed_that/ngbl

^ direct link to the article/book chapter: https://www.intechopen.com/books/psychopathy-new-updates-on-an-old-phenomenon/the-impact-of-psychopathy-on-the-family

[–]strictly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

For example: Out of 73 transgender patients receiving SRS, 81% had at least one personality disorder, and 57% had narcissistic personality disorder (at the very least), with higher prevalence among transwomen. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/

I think it's true that autogynpehilic trans people people tend to have more personality disorders than the average person (I think there are other papers supporting that). I happen to have seen this particular paper you link to before though.

That paper was published in Med J Islam Repub Iran and the participants were patients of a sex clinic in Iran. I think compared to the US men who transition in Iran are less likely to be autogynephilic and are more likely to be feminine homosexual men. In Iran homosexual sexual activities can lead to the death penalty and I saw a documentary once about how there are homosexuals in Iran who feel forced to transition as trans people in Iran are more accepted than homosexuals. So I think this paper probably refer more to homosexual trans people than auto*philic trans people. I’m also uncertain if researchers in Iran tend to be unbiased toward homosexuals as homosexuals aren’t accepted in Iran, and as homosexuals are persecuted in Iran then that in itself might lead to more mental health issues among homosexuals who transition.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This

I think compared to the US men who transition in Iran are less likely to be autogynephilic and are more likely to be feminine homosexual men.

and this

I’m also uncertain if researchers in Iran tend to be unbiased toward homosexuals as homosexuals aren’t accepted in Iran

are good points to keep in mind. To be clear, though, I don't mean to suggest that AGP transwomen have a monopoly on personality disorders; while they may or may not be driving the trend, I think it is worth considering in the context of HSTS people as well, because transgender ideology can be cultlike and narcissistic and draw people who are high in those traits. I think the rate is largely so high because personality disorders are far more common in clinical populations, period; but cultural context and homophobia-based discrimination are important to keep in mind.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I find it interesting that the high correlation was in a group that had gotten SRS. I wonder if that had anything to do with it. I know agp types are much more distressed with their gentiles than hsts.

And thank you!

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No prob! :)

Possible thoughts...

  • people who get SRS (a misnomer, that term) may be likely to have stronger beliefs about transgender ideology than someone who only socially transitions, and transgender ideology/queer theory have a lot of narcissistic beliefs in them, so they might naturally and more easily adopt those beliefs to a deep extent and choose to act on them.

  • People who present at a clinic are more likely to have a personality disorder than someone in the general population, period. So a trans-ID person presenting at a clinic to get SRS is likelier to have a PD than a trans-ID person in the general population, simply because of comorbidity likelihood.

I know agp types are much more distressed with their gentiles than hsts.

If only they acted more like Good Samaritans... hahaha.

Just speculation. I haven't checked the literature for anything more recent than these.

[–]grixit 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

r/actual_detrans, huh? I'm surprised it hasn't been banned.

[–]Ferngully 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It was banned, but after lots of outcry they unbanned it.