Trans activists use historic identities like Kathoey from Thailand to justify trans politics. However, some say Kathoey means "effeminate gay men".

submitted by chris3991m from en.wikipedia.org

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]beazer12beard 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Two-Spirit:

The term Two Spirit (original form chosen) was created in 1990 at the Indigenous lesbian and gay international gathering in Winnipeg, and "specifically chosen to distinguish and distance Native American/First Nations people from non-Native peoples".[4] The primary purpose of coining a new term was to encourage the replacement of the outdated and considered offensive, anthropological term, berdache.

Berdache:

Before the late twentieth-century, non-Native (i.e. non-Native American/Canadian) anthropologists used the term berdache (/bərˈdæʃ/), in a very broad manner, to identify an indigenous individual fulfilling one of many mixed gender roles in their tribe. Most often these anthropologists applied the term to any male whom they perceived to be homosexual, bisexual, or effeminate by Western social standards

[–]Femaleisnthateful 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I never understood 'two spirit'. There are I-don't-know-how-many distinct Indigienous tribes in North America. Why would they all recognize the term 'two spirit'? It's such an obvious example of Western colonial imposition.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's funny. It could have been men sewing clothes or something and the people of the tribe had no idea they were being "gay" in the eyes of European settlers gendered eyes.

[–]ClassroomPast6178 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Tailors, pattern cutters, weavers, haberdashers, milliners and other roles in the manufacture of clothing being men isn’t and has never been alien to Europeans.

I’m struggling to come up with a “job” that would possibly make Europeans think that someone was a bit light in the loafers (as in roles in Europe only done by women, never men). Cooking, nope. Gathering, nope. Farming, nope. Leatherwork, nope. Hunting, nope. Clothing manufacture, nope. Jewellery manufacture, nope. Fishing, nope. Net care, nope.

What’s to bet that the people called “berdache” were dressed in women’s clothing and treated as women because they were gay, just like that group in Samoa. They’re not trans or a third gender, it’s just that a subsistence society just doesn’t have a place for gay men.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What’s to bet that the people called “berdache” were dressed in women’s clothing and treated as women because they were gay

Yeah that's how Hijras are in India which people are now trying to use as proof of x y or z. The unique thing about Hijras was that they were actually a 3rd gender in that gender is a social caste. India has historically had an EXTREMELY rigid social hierarchy built up with castes and even though the government made castes illegal the population still views them as real. If you are a man who doesn't take a wife and create children then you are not fulfilling your "role" in society correctly. The caste system in India took this very seriously and would move those men into an entirely separate caste.

I have known about Hijras for a long time due to documentaries and there never used to be any implication that I saw indicating that they were supposed to be trans in any way. As time went on the TRAs have pushed that definition creep and now if you look up Hijras it explicitly claims they are transwomen which is insanity because the entire point of Indian culture creating the new caste was to push them outside the role of both men and women.

[–]jet199 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's unlikely though.