all 20 comments

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Oy! I have been meaning to see this and probably still won't for a while yet but I will comment here once I have. Thank you for the heads up, that sounds pretty annoying!

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No problem! Unfortunately I may have biased you against it now, lol. Again, there were some really cool parts of that movie! I was just saddened by those anti-LGB parts of it.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No worries—I would have noticed, so it's probably better not to think I'm about to watch something that won't also be rather annoying. That is a bizarre error to make by now so I'm almost curious because it has these issues.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will say, too, if you watch it and disagree, please let me know!! After my friends told me they didn't notice that stuff at all, I wondered briefly if I might be overreacting. I don't think I am, but am curious to hear other LGB people's opinions; hence the post.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I saw it a few weeks ago and absolutely loved it.

Could you be more specific about the parts you thought were homophobic/biphobic? I remember the daughter having a girlfriend, and the mother initially disapproving. Then there's the reality where the mother has a girlfriend. The buttplug stuff was awkwardly funny.

I don't remember feeling offended by anything, but I'm a man, so maybe I overlooked it because of that.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Could you be more specific about the parts you thought were homophobic/biphobic?

Yeah sure. SPOILERS BELOW

edit: I tried to use spoiler tags but markdown's not having it. Sorry.


Like I said, what annoyed me was that the vast majority of the time, the lesbian/bisexual female characters were portrayed as violent, evil, gross, or otherwise uncool. Character by character:

Bisexual tax woman:

  • Violent: In almost every single universe, she is violent. Example 1: In the one where she's first introduced as one of the thralls of the bad guys, she is fucking disturbing. She rips a pipe off a wall and tries to split open the mom's skull. Example 2: Even in the universe where she's a tax auditor, she drove her car through somebody's house-- as a reaction to her husband wanting a divorce, sure, but any reasonable person would call that unhinged in our normal world.

  • Disturbing: The script constantly makes her do disturbing stuff just for the sake of being disturbing. She is the vessel of bAAAAAAAAAd in this movie. Example 1: she literally staples a piece of paper to her forehead. Example 2: In the hot dog finger universe, there's a horrible scene where she seemingly sexually assaults the mother. I felt sickened watching that. That's literally the "predatory same-sex attracted woman" stereotype. Fucking sickening. And only late in the movie is it framed as, "Oh, ha ha, by the way, in this universe they are actually in a relationship so it's all cool"-- but the mother didn't know that at the time, so of course she would've perceived it as creepy and unwanted.

  • Uncool/lame/weird: Example 1: Even in the universe where she's the nicest, she's a fucking tax auditor. Example 2: In the US, there is a cultural connotation of negativity around the IRS. This character's romantic relationship with the mother (who I guess is supposed to be bisexual too, then) is portrayed in the universe where everyone has the gross, uncomfortable-looking hotdog fingers. The other characters in the movie comment on how weird the hotdog fingers are. "Same-sex attraction = weird" is the clear and resounding message on display.

Joy, the lesbian daughter:

  • Violent: Example 1: Literally wants to kill everybody and everything and suck them into a black hole (specifically, onto a bagel). She is, effectively, "joyless." Example 2: Her first fight scene where she fights a security guard and literally ends up holding bloody dicks in her hands, delighting at her handiwork... that is literally the "man-hating lesbian" stereotype. Like, could not be more on-the-nose obvious. Even for a lesbian character, they still make her center men and make it about men!

The mother (who is presumably bisexual as well):

  • Hurtful and uncaring: Example 1: She is consistently rude, hurtful and dismissive to her gay daughter throughout the entire movie, even at the end! The mother calls Joy "fat, ugly, and ungrateful" twice in the movie-- the first time, for a clearly intentional heart-wrenching effect and the second time, the viewers are "faked out" and led to believe that the mother will apologize and instead she just digs her heels in more and calls Joy the same horrible stuff. And then never apologizes for it! The clear message here: "It's fine to tell your gay daughter that she's disgusting/fat/ugly." Example 2: In the supposedly "happy" ending, when Joy and her mother get out of the car and Joy's girlfriend stays in the car, Joy's mother tells the girlfriend, "You need to grow your hair longer" (Joy's girlfriend is somewhat GNC and has a shorter haircut). This is supposed to be the "caring" version of the mother....... like, wow, way to make the mother look like an asshole, and way to condone behavior-policing activities directed at gay women. Women are policed constantly about how they look, and there are tons of prescriptive stereotypes about the hair that a "real lesbian" or "real woman" or whatever is supposed to have. Fuck off with that bullshit. I was disgusted to see that in a movie that bills itself as "progressive." I don't know about other bisexual/lesbian women, but I personally have heard so. much. shit about my hair length, from both homophobic conservative AND liberal women, and I'm sick of it. Whatever else it is, it is absolutely not progressive, and the fact that this movie treated such criticism as a normal part of the "good" world that the gay characters just have to put up with, is absolute bullshit.

(Note that the mother was portrayed in a somewhat more positive light than the other lesbian/bi characters-- probably because she is the clear protagonist of the movie and we are supposed to think that she is great.)

This movie invoked platitudes about "love" and "family" but ironically, I don't think the mother actually said "I love you" to her daughter a single time. Let alone apologized for her homophobic shaming and her anger at her daughter for being gay.

There are more examples of anti-LGB stereotypes in this movie but those are the ones I could think of off the top of my head. About the only LGB-positive things I can say this movie did well are that 1. at least they acknowledged that Joy was gay in every universe and that her sexuality wasn't "fLuId!1!1!1!" 2. a few wholesome moments between Joy and her girlfriend and 3. the movie didn't bring up gender ideology at all.

Also yeah I wasn't bothered by the buttplug scene either, lol. I would describe it like you said: awkward but hilarious.

/rant. Wow I needed to get that out of me, thanks for asking.

edit 07/28/22: Linked this to someone else and just now remembered: the mother is also violent because she hit her lesbian daughter halfway through the movie. No apologies... it's never addressed then or later in the movie... nothing. Message: "It's fine to physically abuse your lesbian daughter." Thanks a lot, "progressive" assholes.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

u/wafflegaff I'm tagging you here because you expressed interest in this, but the comment I'm responding to contains spoilers for the movie (Everything Everywhere All At Once), just a warning.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the heads up!

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Other than seeing Michelle Yeoh again, I was pretty blasé on this movie until now. Suddenly I want to hate watch it to confirm your observations..

I better hold off reading the rest of this until afterwards, though.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I thought the actors and actresses did a great job. Can't blame the script on them!

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I wouldn't hold that against them.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Michelle Yeoh is always delightful.

Have you seen Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings? She's in that, too.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

No, not yet. I may check that out too.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, but it's good on it's own. You can safely ignore the references if you're not familiar with the MCU, and just enjoy a martial arts movie with crazy visuals about a broken family.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm half familiar with MCU, so that stuff should be fine anyway.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

(Also, Simu Liu is hot.)

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Tru

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I can see why you were bothered. I guess it's an issue of perspective. I'm a gay dude, so the subtleties of existing as a lesbian/bi woman (or any woman) are lost on me. If the sexes had been swapped, I probably would've been more aware of gay/male stereotypes. Like if the male-version of Jamie Lee Curtis' character was being wildly flamboyant or something.

It seems like a classic case of 'trying to be inclusive and fucking it up.'

Thanks for the detailed reply!

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah no problem, ty for reading it :) didn't intend to write a wall of text but it happened, lol.

I'm a gay dude, so the subtleties of existing as a lesbian/bi woman (or any woman) are lost on me. If the sexes had been swapped, I probably would've been more aware of gay/male stereotypes. Like if the male-version of Jamie Lee Curtis' character was being wildly flamboyant or something.

Yeah no that totally makes sense. I was thinking after I wrote my comment that if there were a version of the movie about gay/bi men instead, I probably would have missed noticing stereotypes that are specific to same-sex attracted men.

It seems like a classic case of 'trying to be inclusive and fucking it up.'

I learned recently that in order for a movie to be eligible for an Oscar best picture award, it has to meet diversity criteria such as having 30% or more of its cast be from underrepresented minority groups. I am seriously wondering if this film was made to have lesbian/bi characters in it just to fit that requirement...

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I didn't know about the Oscar thing, that's crazy. Yeah, forced diversity is how you get bad representation. I'd rather have no LGB characters than shitty ones that only exist to fill a quota.

Ruining artistic freedom isn't going to make the world a better place.