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[–]sloan 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

that's not really true. you're trying to rationalize something by giving it an intellectual veneer. The people who hate us arent scholars and intellectuals worried about lineage or western civilization. She's asking about the very essence of homophobia which elicits great disgust and hatred.

We're hated for breaking gender norms. Gender is about power relations and what you expect from other people, your responsibilities towards them and how you're supposed to treat them. Gender is about what you're entitled to in certain roles. Gay people can elicit massive disgust when straight people assume it means we expect something from them when we dont follow their gender roles and slip into ones theyre not used to. Of course all these things are in the heads of the heterosexuals but they assume certain things about gays and lesbians which infuriate them.

Straight men have certain responsibilities that are infused into their character if they ever want to be a "man". To protect women, to die for them, to sacrifice themselves as "men" when letting the women and children go first on the titanic and be well spoken of or punished and humiliated as cowards if they dont fulfill their duties.

Can you imagine the amount of rage they'd feel if they they felt gay men who were the "bottoms" or whatever but were still males, put a princess tiara on and demanded to cut in line in the titanic above all the men because now these straight men were supposed to be responsible for these gay men they have absolutely no sexual attraction to or duty towards. And the resentment and anger of the women there and their rage at a gay man "stealing their resources", which is the duty of men to "protect" women that women like to exploit and fight and compete over amongst each other. Of course these are all assumptions but they assume if you get fucked like a woman would, then you must want to be assuming the gender role, entitlement and traits of a straight woman, which is where all their assumptions come from

Gender also can become very toxic and can rub people the wrong way. Like how a narcissistic woman can go into a room and expect that every guy wants to do something for her, which just rubs straight men the wrong way. Can you imagine the anger a straight man would feel if some gay person walked into a room and started acting in such a way where he thinks he's some sexy irresistible bimbo and acts like a snotty entitled brat because he thinks he's "cute"?

Straight men and women have also laid claim to certain traits and characteristics for their sex in a competition against one another which sometimes doesnt cut a clean line down the middle because gays and lesbians are down the middle of that line. So women would be highly disgusted and resentful towards gay men because they believe certain human traits are theirs and "how dare gays step into our territory" from things such as empathy, compassion etc and the same goes for lesbians vs straight men.

All of these scenarios are just millions of assumptions made about what you anticipate gay men to be like and what you think they expect from you because of the way they act. Of course it can be reversed, where gay "top" men are seen as intimidating and the rage straight men would feel about being made into "women" and degraded, dominated and debased by engaging in power dynamics with these men who could sexually dominate them.

Heterosexual men and heterosexual women have a great disgust for each other not because of their sex but because of their gender roles. And that disgust they have for each other leaks on to gays and lesbians. Sometimes it's hatred and sometimes its just laughter and mockery. Women in positions of power would be seen as a joke not so long ago. There are some men who would have died of laughter at the thought of a female president because of the assumptions they make about someone's gender (not sex).

All the other answers seem to try and rationalize and give political/structural answers but "ideas" and political beliefs dont inspire disgust towards gays and lesbians. Christian priests didnt just randomly say one day: "ok. you know your gay family members that you have no hatred for? Well, we need to breed more so i need you to uncontrollably be disgusted by them". That's not how any of this works.

Gays and lesbians keep forgetting we were seen as gender abominations in the imaginations of heteros: Gay males painted as cowards by women for not wanting to "serve" them or be manipulated by them because they weren't "man enough" to want the honour of serving a woman and fulfill his role as a man and lesbians were slandered as degenerate beasts who werent interested in pursuing femininity and being a delicate flower to be possessed by a man.

Our entire gay civil rights movement was only allowed to progress when we taught people your sex doesnt have to define your gender and on top of that, gender roles dont always have to be a thing. But there's been a flood of heterosexual men and women so damaged that if they dont fit into their gender roles perfectly, are chopping off their dicks or breasts and coming in to our community to go against the very essence of what we fought for which was that gender doesnt have to be tied to sex. (but they medicalize and pathologize any deviance from gender roles as meaning there's something deeply wrong with you and you must be of the opposite sex and need to change your sex to match a certain personality, which again, goes against the entire history of our movement)

[–]Cass 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

You don't understand what gender roles are and how they work.

titanic

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22119-sinking-the-titanic-women-and-children-first-myth/

We went through a list of over 100 major maritime disasters spanning three centuries to see if we could find data on survival rates of men and women. We ended up with data on 18 shipwrecks, involving 15,000 passengers. In contrast to the Titanic, we found that the survival rate for men is basically double that for women. We only have data on children for a limited number of shipwrecks, but it is evident that they have really bad survival prospects: just 15 per cent.

let's look at what happens in conservative societies with traditional gender roles when everybody is in danger

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2016/08/02/4-asylum-seeker-demography-young-and-male/

Since 2013, the demographic profile of asylum seekers in the EU-28, Norway and Switzerland has become slightly more male (67% in 2013, 71% in 2014 and 73% in 2015), with a steady share of asylum seekers arriving under 35 years of age (80% in 2013 and in 2014, 83% in 2015).

UNHCR has to fudge the language in order to cover for the large discrepancy between men and women refugees https://www.unhcr.org/women.html

In times of displacement, this problem escalates. Women and girls make up around 50 per cent of any refugee, internally displaced or stateless population

Internally displaced and stateless are not refugees. I can't actually find any study or concrete numbers on female refugees besides this quote here.

"Gender norms" never benefited women. And this whole thing with chivalry and sacrifice or whatever you're talking about only existed in novels and for people who have a golden image of the good old days.

I don't understand why you have to invent this whole story when you are contemporary with real societies where homosexuals are imprisoned or even executed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-43822234 here's a list.

Then you do some research. Since all of those places have access to internet you can find people who will explain why they hate gays.

Specifically regarding Afghanistan, a couple days ago I made a post where I was wondering about the connection between the Taliban, who execute homosexuals and bacha bazi. If those abused boys grow up to become radicalized and join the Taliban then they probably don't make the distinction between pedophile who rapes boys and homosexual.

In fact here's an article which appeared in a reputable magazine about homosexuality in islam. Notice how it's actually about men taking boy lovers. https://thediplomat.com/2016/06/afghanistans-love-hate-relationship-with-homosexuality/

[–]DimDroog 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Straight men have certain responsibilities that are infused into their character if they ever want to be a "man". To protect women, to die for them, to sacrifice themselves as "men" when letting the women and children go first on the titanic and be well spoken of or punished and humiliated as cowards if they dont fulfill their duties.

I always hated this particular line of thinking.

Hated it with a passion.

I'm a woman, for what it's worth.

Your whole comment is pure gold.

[–]TurtleChaos 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I guess it's good then that the whole "men nobly sacrificing themselves for women and children" thing isn't demonstrably true, like, at all. Just go look at the article Cass linked further up the comment chain- "the survival rate for men is basically double that for women." Does that make you feel better?

[–]DimDroog 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The reason I don't like it is because it assumes women are helpless little bubbles.

I'm tired of it.

Does that make you feel better?

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

As always, you make excellent points that need to be heard and discussed.

However, you do not support our movement, and will eventually use our sub to promote your own hatred towards others and blame us for your feelings.

Goodbye.

[–]usehername[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

?

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Ban-evasion user

[–]usehername[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

How can you tell?

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can't speak for TWF, but for me it's the diction, the tendency towards screed, and (this is the big one and the thing that always gets him or her in trouble) the focus on intersectionality/demonizing subgroups. Hang around long enough and it gets obvious.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The people who hate us arent scholars and intellectuals worried about lineage or western civilization.

That's completely irrelevant. The scholars of religious texts tell the followers what to think.