DiscussionDo you agree with gender critical feminism?

submitted by ukrdude10 from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Certainly much of GC, or at least its popularity, seems to be a reaction to trans women, however, the basic tenants of GC don't require trans to even be a thing, men will always exist; though GC may have been developed because of and through the lens of trans. Not about to undertake the intractable task of a genealogy of the feminisms...

It's also a culture.

I'm generally amenable to the basics of GC, if not the culture. The main topic I break with GC on is the idea that men and women, beyond their basic reproductive biology and physical capabilities, are the same. I instead see psychological differences: styles of cognition, career interests (not necessarily aptitude!), etc. All sorts of things that I don't think can be adequately explained solely on the basis of a socially-constructed patriarchy or a social reflection of only reproductive and physical-capability dimorphism. I think that's an oversimplification.

While sharing many individual goals with GC, my sometimes different means and ethical handling of arriving at the same conclusions will get me skewered by them, which is alienating. Especially because the rationale for some of my belief has been completely co-opted by TRAs for their nefarious purposes.

Both trans and GC are at each others throats, and no middle ground can be held by a person without either crowd assuming that the person indeed belongs strictly in the other, respective camp.

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think that's changed - what is now thought of as gender critical in the US is not any really defined ideology, and thus has become very big tent and includes gay men and gay-supporting conservatives.

Many people now referred to as gender critical by the gender lobby are not the gender critical or radical feminists of old, instead they are just normal people who are OK with men wearing dresses, etc., but believe what I have stated in other posts on this thread.

GC people are not at the genderists' throats per se. We just believe that their rights end where women/gay men/parents/scientists/children's rights begin.

We want ourselves respected and our rights maintained, but wish the genderists the best in their fight for rights, safety and freedom.

And please, anyone - name one GC person who has gone after a trans activist's job? Who has issued a death or rape threat to a trans activist? It doesn't happen.

But yes, there is no pie in terms of women sharing what little we have with men claiming to be women.

By claiming that they can identify into women's oppression, transgender identified males imply that women can identify out of our oppression. We cannot.

Gender people can simply change their appearance and their oppression disappears, women cannot.

From the ages of between approx. 12-50 most women can be forced to reproduce. For our entire existence, except since the advent of the pill and abortion a mere 50-60 or so years ago, women have been kept in an almost constant state of pregnancy during those years.

My grandmother, who wasn't legally allowed to vote until her late 20s, and not because of her pronouns, was one of 14 children - that was extremely common then. Her mother was pregnant or taking care of an infant for decades.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what women have had to put up with for human's entire history and before.

But even me - before Title IX I was not allowed to take Shop, because it was for boys. Girls had to take Home Economics to learn how to be housewives.

Even had my grandmother and I declared ourselves transmen, or changed our pronouns, our oppression would not have been lifted. We were not oppressed because of our identity, but because we were/are women.

And i would love someone who supports trans demands to explain the difference between trans-racialism and trans-genderism and why one is feted and the other one shunned. Go ahead, I have time...

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think that's changed - what is now thought of as gender critical in the US is not any really defined ideology, and thus has become very big tent and includes gay men and gay-supporting conservatives.

If that's the case, then maybe sign me up. I appreciate the work you're doing to try and change the perception. Just as how there are some reasonable trans people out there, but we all tend to pay attention to the bad actors, I think is the same case here. Groups get judged by their perceived extremists, and I do see those sorts of people or thoughts banging around in places I'd consider to be largely GC.

[–]BEB 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I myself am not trying to change the perception: I feel that the perception of what trans activists consider "gender critical," and what people who are now sort of considering themselves "gender critical" (although many wouldn't know that term, much less use it) has changed from its rad fem origins, and I'm just trying to explain the changes.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm generally amenable to the basics of GC, if not the culture. The main topic I break with GC on is the idea that men and women, beyond their basic reproductive biology and physical capabilities, are the same. I instead see psychological differences: styles of cognition, career interests (not necessarily aptitude!), etc. All sorts of things that I don't think can be adequately explained solely on the basis of a socially-constructed patriarchy or a social reflection of only reproductive and physical-capability dimorphism. I think that's an oversimplification.

You summed this up so beautifully, and I wholly agree. 2nd wave feminism is dehumanizing and reductive. There also, possibly just in the recent past, was a whole subculture associated with it that had prejudices and taboos not necessarily drawn from the belief system itself. They were, to put it mildly, down on bisexuals.

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was around for the tail end of 2nd Wave feminism, and I would say that it was far from dehumanizing or reductive.

I don't think younger people understand what women were up against. We were not considered deserving of basic human and civil rights. In the US, to this day, women do not have an Equal Rights Amendment.

2nd Wave feminism, as I remember it, was a broad movement composed of women, normal women of all colors, who were fed the fuck up with our oppression. There were radicals, and that's what killed it, but so much of it was women, just average women, in a collective roar.