Intersectionality

submitted by Britishbulldog from self.GenderCritical

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[–]cherryfemme 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Obviously feminism shouldn’t include men but I’m not seeing what’s wrong with being some aspects of intersectionality. Aside from the push for trans issues the only other times I’ve seen for pushing intersectional feminism has been to include women of other races and disabled women that had their issues ignored.

[–]Britishbulldog[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I absolutely agree, intersectionality is important, particularly for WoC, disabled women and women in non-Westernised nations. The original post was not denouncing the whole concept, more the obsessive applying it to feminism and nothing else (and more specifically to men in feminism). Intersectionality should mean ALL women (not all people). It’s the way feminism is forced to be ‘intersectional’ and most times I’ve seen it the ‘intersectional’ in question is TIMs or male identifying men. This might be an age thing. I’m 21.

[–]cherryfemme 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I only ever mentioned ALL WOMEN not all people being included. I’ve already mentioned how it’s been forced to include men and TIMs. It’s possibly an age thing. I’m 24. It’s also probably an location issue. I’m assuming you’re British. I have no idea how inclusive of race feminist groups are where you live. Being a black woman in the US I’ve had issues with both libfem and radfem spaces either being racist or ignoring how race can affect how women are treated. EDIT: Thank you for editing your comment so now my response to you doesn’t make sense

[–]Britishbulldog[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Considering our similar ages, I think it’s more to do with location. Race is less of a major issue here- particularly where I’ve lived (very rural and a not particularly diverse small city, without giving much away). Imagine it is a much bigger issue in London and the more diverse cities here. Any Brits from bigger cities able to add anything?

[–]Rationalmind 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I think we should get rid of the concept, it only divides women. I’d rather we have radical feminism include women from all backgrounds with particular emphasis for helping poor women.

[–]cherryfemme 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I’d love if we could get rid of the concept but women aren’t immune from being racist or ableist. There are plenty of libfem and radfem groups that focus mainly on issues that affect white women since they are the majority and ignore issues that don’t affect them. So in this instance I don’t mind a call for some inclusivity since we’re already being divided.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

There are plenty of libfem and radfem groups that focus mainly on issues that affect white women since they are the majority and ignore issues that don’t affect them.

This is interesting, but unfortunate. I am so sorry to hear it's the case. Can you give the names of some of these groups and where they are?

BTW, do you think only white women/people can be racist? And that white women/people are more likely to be ableist than women/people of all other races and ethnicities?

My own view is that racism is not exclusive to white people. What the Chinese are doing to the Uighyrs right now seems to come from racism, ethnic prejudice and animus based on religion and culture. There's tons of racism in the Middle East from all sides, including from Arabs in SA and the Gulf states towards people from east Asia, south Asia and much of Africa who are being used there as slave labor at this moment.

At the same time, lots of people in/from south and east Asia are racist towards darker skinned persons from their own part and other parts of the world. I know persons with black skin from Africa and from the US who are racist towards Asians and Hispanic people, people from South America - especially Brazil and Argentina - who are racist towards black people regardless of their country of origin and also to persons of indigenous heritage from their own continent as well as Central America.

Whilst I also acknowledge that lots of white people are ableist, I don't think white people have a monopoly on ableism. There's long been a huge amount of prejudice towards kids with inborn disabilities and medical conditions, as well as acquired ones like FGM and malaria, in countries like China, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and various parts of Africa. The custom in a lot of these places has been to just let kids like that die, to hide them away, to turn them into beggars, and/or to shame and punish them - or to try selling them off.

The US and other predominantly white countries are home to many charities and medical institutions that help children from all around the world born with a wide variety of diseases and disabilities, or who have acquired such in the course of life. St Jude's, Shriner's and Long Island Jewish, for example. People from all across the globe bring their children to be treated at such places coz there's no help for such kids in their home countries. Similarly, surgeons and doctors from North America, the UK and Europe have a long tradition of going to other countries to help people, especially kids but also adults, with inherited disabilities and acquired medical conditions that are disabling and/or potentially fatal.

I think if you were to look into the history of what's happened all over the world to people with inborn conditions like cleft palate, club foot, sickle cell, cystic fibrosis and so on - as well those with acquired diseases like polio, leprosy, smallpox, Ebola, HIV-AIDs, and many more - you'll find that ableism isn't the exclusive province of white people.

To paraphrase ML King, content of character is the key element - not color of skin or the creed or nationality into which one was born.

[–]cherryfemme 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m mainly talking about online groups such as r/gc which had instances of racism that went unchecked. I also never said that white women can only be racist. Just that when the majority of a group is white it’s mostly going to topics that affect white women. When racist women do post subtle racism this is also unchecked and dismissed as a non-issue by other members when an offended party speaks up.

Also never said that white women are more capable of being ableist than women of other ethnicities, just that I’ve seen it used as a reason for why intersectional feminism is needed for disabled women.

[–]cherryfemme 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I’m not sure if you took a moment to look at my other reply before you decided to edit your entire post. Although most of my experience dealing with racism has come from white people, I already said I know racism isn’t exclusive to just white people. I also already know that white people aren’t the only ones capable of being ableist. I have always taken the time to address racism coming from other black people I know and calling attention to ableism when I see it.

I’m very new to radical feminism as it wasn’t something on my radar a year ago. My views were never completely in line with liberal feminism so I thought radfem communities would be for me but it seems like your also content with speaking down to people here as well.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Who on this thread is "speaking down to people" - meaning, I suspect, you? You've made sweeping statements that portray untold numbers of "lib fem and rad fem groups" which include vast quantities of women of various races, ethnicities, nationalities, ages, disabilities and disease status as made up entirely of white women who are all racist against black women and ableist as well.

Challenging you on your statements is not "speaking down" to you. It's treating you as the intelligent adult who can show evidence for your claims that I/we assume you are.

You slagged off generations of women in your initial posts, but in subsequent posts you've admitted

I’m mainly talking about online groups such as r/gc

And

I’m very new to radical feminism as it wasn’t something on my radar a year ago.

So why not simply preface your remarks by saying, "I'm very new to radical feminism and my only impression of it comes from online groups such as r/gc which I only became aware of less than a year ago but which from my very brief exposure I got the sense that they are/were dominated by white women who are racist and ableist"?

There's no harm in being new to a scene. But it takes some gall for a newbie/rube of any scene to rock up to a scene forum and slag off most/all of the people who've long been in that scene based on the perhaps inaccurate and unfair impressions that the newbie obtained from very brief exposure to parts of said scene.

[–]cherryfemme 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You talked down to me the moment you decided you needed to explain what racism is. As if that’s something I’m not unfortunately familiar with. You then went on to explain what charities and disabilities are like I’m a child.

You completely dismissed the entirety of my posts and got defensive. At no point did I say all white women are racist. I had some concerns on how i haven’t seen some instances of racism dealt with properly and instead you took that as me saying all radfem and gc spaces are racist.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I know this is late, but I want to let you know I get you as a WoC too. Racism is a touchy subject but it has to be brought up (feminism isnt about the easy stuff), and white people can get very defensive and do that reverse offense thing, like the above. "You know non-whites can be racist too." or "So you're calling me a racist?" or deflect and talk about how barbaric certain ethnicities are in undeveloped countries, even though the point of bringing up race is to call attention to what minorities in a white majority country face in the context of colonialism.

Ive had it happen to me at least twice since Ive joined some of the new radfem spaces. I tried explaining how certain symbols could be interpreted as racist - only for a bunch of people to gang up on me and accuse me of calling them racist, Then the mod ended the discussion by declaring that I was wrong because she had friends who were of a certain ethnicity, even though I was actually that ethnicity and probably the only WoC in that discussion.

[–]cherryfemme 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for replying. It’s never too late to share your experiences. I’ve seen other black women talk about similar experiences to yours and I’ve also had the same issues outside of radfem spaces. That’s all I ever wanted to point out.

[–]Rationalmind 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think we call for inclusivity but not on the basis of intersectionality which to me is destructive. My viewpoint on this have evolved over about a year. I originally thought, like you, it should be salvaged but in practice I’ve seen it play out to the destruction of the group. Moreover, I think lower self-esteem women will automatically side with the oppressed (trans) even if the “oppressed” is oppressing and manipulating and conning people. It’s too corrosive a concept in practice. We just need to use empathy.

[–]cherryfemme 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems you’re focused on completely ignoring that if you’re racist or ableist you’re not going to include or feel empathy for women of color or disabled women. I’ve witnessed instances of women being dismissive of Black women’s concerns on how accepted we are in gender critical and radfem spaces back when r/gc was around and that looks like it never changed.