How many people ACTUALLY believe this nonsense?

submitted by teacherterf from self.GenderCritical

I just completed some workplace training on discrimination and harassment. There were a bunch of "is this discrimination and harassment?" scenarios, and one of them was this (I've taken liberties with the details so as not to out myself, but didn't change anything important):

"Your coworker Daniel tells you that they want to be called Daniella from now on, and referred to as 'she/her'. Anothet coworker insists that he will call her Daniel and use he/him pronouns because he thinks it's wrong to be asked to lie. Is this harassment?"

Of course this is considered harassment

Note, though, that these superwoke training materials both deadnamed and misgendered Daniella. If there's one thing I learned from the endless discussion about Ell* Page, it's that it's harmful and even dangerous to do that, even when discussing the transperson's transition.

I know this, and I'm a TERF. Yet the enforcers of this ideology wouldn't even pass the 101-level course on how to talk about trans people. Does anyone actually believe this stuff?

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[–][deleted] 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I think people want to believe it because they want to be supportive and on the 'right side of history.' But TRAs are manipulative narcissists. People like that are notoriously exhausting to be around and are known for making contradictory demands that make no sense because as soon as you meet a demand, they need to make another one to keep you focused on them, regardless of whether the new demand coincides with the first or makes any sense.

TRAs can never keep their story straight. We saw how Mermaids backtracked hard on their 'born in the wrong body' narrative and attempted to gaslight all of society by claiming 'we never said that.' That can't last. Even the nicest person will be fed up with trying to meet the expectations of someone who is inconsistent, always changing their story when its convenient, perpetually lies, and is never satisfied with what others do for them.

[–]lefterfield 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with everything you're saying. Though I believe at the moment this part: "making contradictory demands that make no sense because as soon as you meet a demand, they need to make another one to keep you focused on them" is convincing people to go along with it. At least at the moment. It's this weird paradox where people don't have strong boundaries and don't want to be "mean" to anyone, in addition to being confused about what's expected of them. The demands are so bizarre and contradictory that somehow it convinces people they must be right. I've seen it on other issues with people on both the right and left.

At some point, the demands will become too ridiculous to ignore. But I do wonder why some people go along with it in the first place. IE, the actual psychology of it.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They will get some people on board by exploiting their sympathy. You're right that the social climate right now means many people are afraid to hurt anyone's feelings, especially since the cancel culture mob is constantly breathing down everyone's necks. Although sometimes people bend not out of an aversion to being mean, but out of self preservation because they don't want to get doxxed or lose their jobs.

I have a few theories for this though. I think people are willing to excuse shitty behavior if they think it comes from a place of pain or mental illness. That's also how TRAs get people to side with them. Their tirades are blamed on dysphoria and 'invalidation'. It's how they've managed to paint anyone who disagrees as violent and transphobic and people believe it because most decent human beings understand that those who lash out due to suffering deserve understanding and support. Obviously we know the majority of TRAs are not innocent victims, but the decent, non GC people who support them don't realize that.

Another theory I have is people who do things like put pronouns in their bio and write those training materials only do that to seem woke but don't actually understand it. I liken it to people who don't understand why some lesbians date butch women but won't date men, yet will say in public they support gay rights because it would be seen as wrong not to. If they were to voice their confusion regarding butch lesbians out loud they may get told they're homophobic and have it explained why. They may smile and nod to save face even though they still might not get it.

Same with this stuff. People who support TRAs might do so because, despite the fact that it doesn't make sense to them, they know it's 'wrong' not to. They get told they need to unlearn their transphobia and accept that without question because they've seen the word salad that accompanies any definition of gender identity. On the surface people see trans rights the exact same way as gay rights, not knowing that if you drill down far enough, homosexuality is real and transgenderism, in a tangible, observable, 'this person is truly female/sexless in a male's body' sense, is not. People don't want to do that though. They'd rather copy and paste 'TWAW' into their twitter bio, get their 'good person' sticker and move on.

I do still think this is too ridiculous to be sustainable. Despite TRAs attempts to get people to see their cause in the same vein as gay rights, at the end of the day LGBs are attracted to the same sex. It's pretty easy to understand, even for homophobes. There are no contradictions about that. Trans ideology on the other hand relies on a never ending spiral of:

I am a woman because I identify as one

what is a woman then?

anyone who identifies as one

so I can be a car if I identify as a car?

no that's not the same because my brain is female. that means im female

say I have a hormone disorder where my testosterone is in male range, does that mean I'm male now?

not unless you identify as male

but you just said you had a female brain and that's what made you a woman. you're telling me all that matters is how you choose to identify? why mention the female brain part then?

fuck off terf. something something biological essentialism. something something white heteronormative definitions of male and female

I'm sure there's more to the psychology of it all regarding why people fall for it at all. I did, and IDed as trans for a few years. I don't think I had the same motivations as people who virtue signal or just want to be supportive though. I'm also curious about that.

[–]Finnegan7921 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

They put wheels on the goalposts to move them more easily.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 7 fun10 insightful - 6 fun11 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Just like how AGPs talk about skirts, 'goalposts go spinny'.

[–]jjdub7Gay Male Guest Commentator 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We need to get back to using concrete goalposts, because these socially-constructed, socially-approved ones are wayy too flimsy.

[–]grixit 18 insightful - 4 fun18 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. Being asked to lie is harassment.

[–]WildApples 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Those workplace trainings are developed with an eye toward avoiding legal liability for the employer. If an employee accuses the employer of discrimination, they want to be able tell the government that they forbid such behavior and told their employees that such actions were prohibited. That's why the materials are so inconsistent; the training is developed by human resources and legal professionals to check legal boxes, not by true believers trying to further the cause.

So the sinister subtext is--whether people believe it or not, whether it makes sense or not-- governments have adopted the view that not catering to gender preferences is discriminatory, and consequently the workplace is probably going to be a primary staging area for normalizing TRA logic. Let's hope there will be sensible courts to keep this from going too far. But, for those of us in the U.S., with Biden, Harris, and Pelosi, sensible judges might not be enough to save women's rights.

There was a study a few years ago that said these types of trainings for sexual harassment made employees more likely to engage in harassment, so who knows? It will probably end up peaking more people.

[–]fediverseshill 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There was a study a few years ago that said these types of trainings for sexual harassment made employees more likely to engage in harassment, so who knows? It will probably end up peaking more people.

Was the result that these situations result in a "handbook" for harassment? or do these companies ADD more rules that normally would be ignored and no one can follow them reliably?

[–]WildApples 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems to be a mixture of reinforcement of gender stereotypes and bro code. From the NY Times:

Other research found that training that described people in a legal context, as harassers or victims, led those being trained to reject it as a waste of time because they didn’t think the labels applied to them, known as an “identity threat reaction,” said Shannon Rawski, a professor of business at the University of Wisconsin, Oshkosh. Training was least effective with people who equated masculinity with power. “In other words, the men who were probably more likely to be harassers were the ones who were least likely to benefit,” said Eden King, a psychologist at Rice University.

And from Psychology Today:

Men who attended the training were more likely to say that sexual behavior at work was wrong, but they were less likely notice sexual harassment, less willing to report sexual harassment and more likely to blame the victim.

[–]jjdub7Gay Male Guest Commentator 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Conversely, I feel like all women at the company have a claim to hostile work environment for being subjected to AGP fetishes in the workplace and having to share restrooms with be-penised men. The fact that this is even up for debate, that the solitary societal-norm-bucking individual's comfort trumps an entire half of people's comfort and frankly, safety, is absurd and exemplifies the "clown world" meme better than any other situation.

[–]fediverseshill 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

he thinks it's wrong to be asked to lie.

True. Wrongthink is the simultaneous belief of two opposing ideas. Your first answer to the question is not what they are looking for, but its the right one.