I don't think I explained my point well enough. In the days before the internet, when nearly all people had the bulk of their interactions IRL (with some letters and phones calls in addition) and dick pics and nude selfies sent via smart phones weren't yet a thing, most people came face to face with the physical totality of other people. And since everyone except naturists and people who lived on warm beaches was usually wearing clothes, not all body parts of other people were visible. People became attracted to the whole person and the parts that were visible or were outlined or suggested by the shape of clothes, but they only discovered and saw each other's parts hidden under the clothes much later - and since so many people in the old days had sex in the dark, lots of people didn't necessarily see each other's genitals initially - or ever.

Even when couples had sex in daylight or with the lights on, the nature of female anatomy means most males never saw their female partners' genitals unless they did cunnilingus with their eyes wide open. But even then, when men went down on women they usually didn't spend their time eyeing the women's genitals - in part coz they'd be at too close range to see properly. Their mouths were on the genitals, but their eyes were usually looking up to see their partners' reactions.

Here's an example from my own life: when I started seeing the man I eventually married, he was always dressed in a business suit the first dozen or more times I saw him. I had no idea then what his feet, ankles, legs, ass, forearms, shoulders, back, ass or genitals looked liked. Only after we had started falling in love did I see him in a short sleeved shirt, shorts and without socks - and it was only then that I first became aware of the shape of his forearms, the color and pattern of the hairs on them, the turn of his ankles, the lovely shape of his calves and knees, etc. I found those parts of him very attractive, but they were not what attracted me to him initially coz I had no idea what they looked like. And it took many more dates before we began having sex and I saw him naked.

BTW, I think it's very interesting that when I said for men it's

things like the shape of a woman's buttocks and back, her legs, the curve of her jaw, the look of her face, her hands, her sense of humor, her confidence, etc that's the biggest attraction and turn-on

You responded by saying

I don't deny that those things are just as important to the attraction but I try not to lean too much into that because then you have "those" people who say that men can possess those things as well. Men can be smaller in stature and have small hands and shapely buttocks and so on. I just try to keep it to the point because it's the one thing that men can't have.

Kai, in my description I never mentioned smaller stature or small hands - I never mentioned size at all. And I wouldn't coz I don't think in those terms, coz I'm not one who has ever thought that being female and attractive = being short, small, dainty, delicate. You're the one making those stereotypical assumptions. I did mention "shapely buttocks," but there are a zillion ways for humans of both sexes to have shapely buttocks. Lots of men have great asses, and they are in no way female-like.

It's not just vaginas and other female gentials that males who ID as trans can never have, it's being female. Which is an inherent fact of biology that can't be replicated by any human intervention, be it hormones or surgeries. There are dimensions to human experience that you seem to discount to because you seem so exclusively focused on the visual, on what things look like in a surface way, and you seem to think that most people can't discern between reality and facsimile, between authenticity and pretense.

Also, just as the fauxlvas and fauxginas of males who've had trans genital surgeries are nothing like the vulvas and vaginas of actual female people, the breasts of males who take CSHs and/or get sacs of gel or fluid implanted into their chests don't feel, look, move or function like female breasts. You've really gotta stop believing that "those people" whose views you put such stock in are most knowledgable and authoritative about human sexuality and sexual relations. It sounds to me like "those people" get most of their ideas about sex from porn, gaming, make-believe, cosplay, queer theory, gender ideology, and relating to others through technological devices rather than in real life. I am so sorry this is what the world has come to.