all 24 comments

[–]anxietyaccount8 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (16 children)

Why is this harmful? Because it teaches women not to act as agents in their lives. It breeds learned helplessness and passivity in the lives of women who hope to be saved one day

Tbh, while women may act "passive" in other ways (like accepting mistreatment) I wouldn't say that this is actually a huge issue for us. A lot of women learn that they must take responsibility for themselves, and be selfless for others.

Beauty is often the first form of power that women are introduced to. The intoxicating feeling of being admired and praised for your looks become deeply inscribed in the psyche of young women.

But what if...you're not pretty? The part of liberal feminism which acts like all young women are beautiful and sexy is so weird.

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Why is this harmful? Because it teaches women not to act as agents in their lives. It breeds learned helplessness and passivity in the lives of women who hope to be saved one day

A lot of women learn that they must take responsibility for themselves, and be selfless for others.

Yes, anxietyaccount, agreed! What's more, a lot of girls learn at an early age that they must take responsibility not only for themselves, but for their younger or sick and disabled siblings - and also for their parents coz their parents and other adults in their lives are neglectful, abusive, drug addicts, alcoholics or just mentally or physically ill. This has been demonstrated in so many true-life stories like "From Homeless to Harvard" and "The Glass Castle." And in many works of fiction like "Shameless."

A huge swathe of the female population in virtually every country on earth has never had a childhood and never developed any sort of helplessness coz at a very early age - like six - they were forced to take on the responsibility not just of taking care and feeding and cooking for themselves, but of raising their siblings and running households, and of parenting their parents.

Moreover, in much of the world in the past as well as now poor girls were and are routinely sent out to work as domestic servants, factory workers, garbage pickers, sex slaves or beggars etc when they are still many years pre-puberty.

Also, I think this libfem author sorta misunderstands the concept of "learned helplessness." It's been decades since I read about the theory of learned helplessness, but IIRC it was supposed to be a response being in a prolonged situation where one had no control over one's life and was subjected to repeated adverse events. The original theory came from experiments on rats given a repeated series of electric shocks. When the theory was applied to humans, no differentiation was made between the experiences of the two sexes - at least not by the originators of the theory.

Also, in humans "learned helplessness" had nothing to do with the idea that a male savior will come along and rescue a damsel in distress the way this author seems to think. It also wasn't the same as growing up without developing any life skills or feelings of competence in any area.

[–]lefterfield 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

it was supposed to be a response being in a prolonged situation where one had no control over one's life and was subjected to repeated adverse events.

Yeah, specifically it developed in rats (and people) who were punished no matter what they did. Eventually they learned to stop trying anything and just withdrew into themselves out of fear. It's a model of perpetual and severe abuse, not a situation the average person finds themselves in.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course, a lot of children grow up in situations of repeated severe abuse. But to suggest that this is how most girls grow up seems a stretch, particularly when it's clear that the author here is speaking about only a narrow band of females who grow up dressing in pink frills, whose main influences are Disney and Mario Brothers, who are constantly told how beautiful they are, and who have no life experience or skills beyond being ornamental.

Linking learned helplessness to fantasies and fairy tales in which "damsels in distress" are rescued by knights in shining armor seems an even further stretch.

[–]jet199 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

All young women are attractive to men, because they are vulnerable.

You could be the ugliest young woman in the world and you'd still have guys hitting on you and telling you you're beautiful. But most girls are sensible enough to know that's no good thing (although I remember a hand full of girls in my class falling for it every time).

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

All young women are attractive to men, because they are vulnerable.

I think it would be more accurate to say that all young women are seen as prey to certain predatory and abusive boys and men coz the women are vulnerable. Lots of male sex offenders fixate on and attack girls and women they see as ugly or old and unattractive for the simple reason they see these girls and women as "easy pickings." Or coz that's who is in their line of sight when they get the urge to attack and rape.

Also, there are men who get off on sexually dominating and humiliating girls and women they regard as "pigs" that in their opinion are rapeable but not otherwise fuckable.

[–]anxietyaccount8 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You completely missed my point. Also I'm not sure why you're speaking as if it's hypothetical, there are some women who don't feel beautiful, don't really get told that, and feel very insecure. To them beauty is not a source of power. So, the fact that libfems sometimes say that as if it's universal is strange.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You completely missed my point. Also I'm not sure why you're speaking as if it's hypothetical, there are some women who don't feel beautiful, don't really get told that, and feel very insecure. To them beauty is not a source of power. So, the fact that libfems sometimes say that as if it's universal is strange.

Sorry, I'm not sure what point of yours it is that I missed.

Re the points in you second post: in my longer post - the first one I posted on this thread - I made the very same points you are now making, albeit less succinctly than you have.

I also objected to the author's presumption that all the female characters that get rescued in Disney movies "look like us." She seems under the misapprehension that when she looks in her mirror what she sees is a universal everywoman.

My misunderstanding of your first post might be over the use of the word "attractive." You said that men hitting on or complimenting girls or women means the men find the girls/women "attractive" and that being attractive in a man's eyes is the same as being "vulnerable." Maybe that's true in some cases, maybe many cases. But I don't think either is necessarily always the case, or even commonly the case.

Men, as well as women, lie all the time, including giving insincere compliments about other people's looks (and other aspects). Sometimes men hit on girls/women who aren't objectively attractive - or who are in most people's view ugly - and flatter them with compliments about their looks as a goof, to mock, humiliate, taunt them and/or to set them up for the rejection and insult that the men will deliver later.

Also, some men will stick their dicks in anything - a submarine sandwich, a hole in the wall, sheep, a dog's ass. Doesn't mean they find those things attractive.

But again, apologies for missing your point.

[–]anxietyaccount8 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Actually, I was responding to the person above you! I agree with what you said. Yes, while many men may give some women sexual attention, it doesn't necessarily mean they really value them or find them attractive.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, okay, good to know. The indentation system here often makes it hard to tell which post is being responded to. Or at least is does to me. But maybe that's just me, LOL.

[–]emptiedriver 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

A lot of women learn that they must take responsibility for themselves

Taking responsibility and taking control aren't exactly the same. Women will often take responsibility - if they make a mistake or something needs to get done, they will make sure things stay afloat, that the minimum is handled. But taking control, getting as far as they can, claiming they're the leader of the pack is not something women are as likely to do. Men are more confident and don't worry as much about their place. If they like skateboarding they start a skateboarding company and national skateboarding competitions and make it a thing but women who like knitting just shrug and say oh it's just a silly little hobby.

But what if...you're not pretty? The part of liberal feminism which acts like all young women are beautiful and sexy is so weird.

THat's not what it says at all. It says it's the first form of power women are introduced to. For women with any kind of beauty - and even very plain women have some kind of beauty just by having female bodies - being sexy is a form of power over men because it allows them to manipulate men, to "turn them on", to lure them or control them in superficial ways. For people with no power in the world, this can be exciting and women can be far too entranced by this very small form of power and get obsessed over it - trying too hard to enhance their sexiness with makeup and heels and pushup bras in order to hold on to that tiny bit of power, which of course cannot last and is never very strong to start with.

And women who lack any kind of traditional beauty, or think they do, can be hugely affected by the same issue! - wishing they had this power but not being able to access it, they get depressed, hate their bodies, develop eating disorders, and all the rest.. - because they don't have ordinary human power in the world, and they don't have this manipulative power either.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Taking responsibility and taking control aren't exactly the same.

True.

And women who lack any kind of traditional beauty, or think they do, can be hugely affected by the same issue! - wishing they had this power but not being able to access it, they get depressed, hate their bodies, develop eating disorders, and all the rest.. - because they don't have ordinary human power in the world, and they don't have this manipulative power either.

But depression, body-hatred, eating disorders and all the rest aren't confined to women who lack any kind of traditional beauty, or think they do, the way you seem to be suggesting. Being good-looking doesn't make a girl or woman invulnerable to such problems.

In fact, depression, body-hatred, eating disorders and a host of associated problems are actually very common amongst beautiful women praised and prized for their looks and their sexiness, such as fashion models, movie stars, porn actresses, pinup girls, strippers, etc. Lots of women who've been seen as sex symbols in the past as well as today might have "this manipulative power" over men you speak of that you seem to think all women desire, but it hasn't saved them from depression, body-hatred, eating disorders, drug addiction, suicide.

Two of the women in the world most acclaimed for their beauty and sexual allure were Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana, and both suffered with depression, body loathing, insecurity - and in Diana's cases EDs, and in MM's case drug addiction and suicide. Bryan Ferry's former wife Lucy Helmore was constantly praised as one of most lovely, beautiful, desirable "socialites" in the UK, yet like many former models she suffered from serious depression, alcoholism and body-image problems - and ended up committing suicide by shotgun as a result.

I actually think there's considerable evidence out there that there are lots of downsides to being perceived as beautiful and sexy, that it can actually be disempowering for a majority of girls and women. Many fashion models and media stars whose main claim to fame was/is their looks often have extremely low self-esteem. Also, not all women who are widely regarded as beautiful and sexy consider being able to use their looks to turn on and manipulate men as a desirable power to have the way you seem to think most/all women do.

The author of the piece under discussion stated that

Beauty is often the first form of power that women are introduced to. The intoxicating feeling of being admired and praised for your looks become deeply inscribed in the psyche of young women. This forces women to become deeply invested in acquiring and maintaining the only form of power that they are allowed to have in a patriarchal society.

And you appeared to concur, repeating and defending the claim that beauty is

the first form of power women are introduced to

My objection to this framing is that it leaves out all the girls and women who - no matter what they look like - grew up knowing they had/have other aspects that they were praised for and through which they felt empowered - such as their brains and good grades, their athletic abilities, their sense of humor, their musical and artistic talents, their feel for nature, their talents and skills in many other diverse areas, their personalities. Sorry, neither the claim that beauty - and particularly sexual allure - "is the first form of power" females experience, nor the claim that for most females it's the only possible kind power we/they will ever have a chance to experience, seem true to me.

Perhaps the issue here is what we mean by "power." When I use the word power, I mean the first definition given by Oxford: the ability to do something or act in a particular way, especially as a faculty or quality. You seem to mean power solely by the second definition Oxford gives: the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events.

A lot of people - including girls and women- find that having the power to do is enormously satisfying in and of itself: being able to do various things and do them well typically brings self-esteem, a sense of competence, a a feeling that one is masteferul. For a lot of people - including girls and women - the power to do primarily for one's own self-enjoyment and enrichment is the end goal. The idea of having power over others is less appealing, and far less important to them. In fact, having the power to manipulate males by using one's looks to "turn them on" is actually a form of power that a lot of girls and women through time have eschewed, even rejected; many never were interested in obtaining this kind of power in the first place.

I find it hard believe that there aren't a lot of girls and women who grew up fully aware that as Judge Judy put it so well, beauty fades but stupid is forever - and never heard such sayings as life isn't a fairy tale and girls, don't bet on the prince.

[–]emptiedriver 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Of course it's not the only kind of power or the best kind, which is the whole point - and I'm glad you grew up knowing that. I think that means you were raised by feminists.

You don't have to explain that women and girls shouldn't think this way. That is the same thing the article is trying to say. But a lot of people still find themselves affected by a patriarchal society and are working to get out of a sexist mindset. I don't think it's fair to just say plenty of women understand they have other and more important qualities. There is still a heavy social value on attractiveness for women. But at one time it was much more extreme, so perhaps it is outdated to concentrate on it as a problem.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think that means you were raised by feminists.

Oh, I wish. In fact, I was raised by strict Roman Catholics in the 1950s and 60s who sent me to convent school. My parents and the religious zealots who taught me at school shoved a lot of sexist BS down my throat. But on the other hand, they encouraged me to develop my academic skills and whole personality and praised me for my intelligence and other characteristics. The fierce nuns in their habits who taught me certainly were not examples of women's liberation as we know it today, but they showed that being a female adult human being didn't have to mean trying to be a beauty queen or sex symbol.

I was actually a very "pretty" child and teen, and did some modeling from age 10-15, following in the footsteps of my mother, who was a fashion model in the 1940s. But what my mom and all the adults around me taught me from an early age is that my most important assets are my brain and personality, not my looks - which they said are/were superficial and will fade. And thank god for that lesson, coz now that I'm over 65 I can attest that my good looks are long gone!

But a lot of people still find themselves affected by a patriarchal society and are working to get out of a sexist mindset. I don't think it's fair to just say plenty of women understand they have other and more important qualities. There is still a heavy social value on attractiveness for women.

Yes, I know this. But is it really true that girls across the board are being raised to think their one and only value is their attractiveness? Girls generally in the Western world are never valued or praised for any other characteristics? They are all being raised as nothing but ornaments and nascent sex objects? Pretty much all parents regard their female children the way parents who put their daughters in baby and child beauty pageants do? No girls anywhere any more are being raised like Scout was in To Kill A Mockingbird or the little girl Ellen in Fatal Attraction?

This view also overlooks the fact that boy babies as well as girl babies are valued for their looks and are constantly praised for being adorable and cute.

Also, just for the record, I was one of the first (and very small number of) women to attend a formerly all-male Ivy League university the first year it admitted female students. It encapsulated patriarchal society and epitomized a very, very sexist mindset. But my sister female students and I didn't respond to that situation by hewing to or promoting the idea that beauty is the first and only kind of power women in patriarchy are able to experience. We put our noses in our books, and our bodies into athletics, instead.

[–]emptiedriver 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But my sister female students and I didn't respond to that situation by hewing to or promoting the idea that beauty is the first and only kind of power women in patriarchy are able to experience

NO ONE is saying that you should! The entire point of this list and all the claims here is that you should respond as you did, recognizing the other strengths of women as being equal and not getting caught in the trap of thinking that women's power lies in their attractiveness to men. The ONLY thing being suggested is that it is more likely that women will be pushed toward this unfortunate mentality. And while you claim this did not affect you, you also note that women could not attend the college you went to until the year you started, so doesn't that just by implication suggest that it is less likely that women are "meant for" college?

But is it really true that girls across the board are being raised to think their one and only value is their attractiveness?

a) it doesn't have to be across the board for it to influence a large portion of women; b) it doesn't have to be their only value for it to be the first or easiest one she is introduced to; c) it doesn't have to be taught to her by those who raised her to be consistently encouraged by the society in which she lives.

It is good that you were taught from a young age to develop other skills. All the same I think it is naive of you to assume that you were not affected at all by being female in that you even had to have that pointed out. Did little boys get told "your looks are superficial, develop your academic skills" or did they just know they were human beings expected to take part in the world, that they could be good looking and smart at the same time and there was no worry of one outweighing the other, of the simple secondary power they might gain through being attractive distracting them from working toward a real agency in life?

That's the idea of this kind of manipulative power. In some versions of the story there might be a collaborative element, but too often a woman would be unable to get where she wanted through efforts of her own so she would get somewhere by attaching herself to a man with potential, and helping/making him be successful. She would need to be attractive to him and able to assist well, but not to develop her own skills and goals. That's the old fashioned best option for women - be a first lady by making a good man president instead of aiming for president yourself - and if it seems to come easily (you're naturally drawing men who are already in positions of some power, eg, going to the prom with the star quarterback, marrying a successful businessman) it may seem easier than saying no and pursuing your own business when the road there is less well laid.

As you said yourself, most women do not end up happy with this kind of "power" and are actually depressed to find out they're trapped by it and have low self esteem and so on...

I feel like we are just talking past each other as you seem to entirely misunderstand the point of the claims here. It is not that women should try to be beautiful or that it actually does create any real power, but once again that it is the first and easiest form that many girls find in their path and that other paths seem more difficult and obstructed, so they pursue what seems like power, and turns out to be a weak, secondary and fleeting form of power, easily destroyed or lowered when men question or overcome this worth directly or indirectly by implying they aren't beautiful enough, cheating on them, not being attracted or just controlling them - and larger society does this constantly to every woman so if she's got stuck on the idea that it's her primary value, she gets upset if stock is going down or not taking her far enough.

Anyway, good for you if you never dealt with this or any of the mindsets listed, advice doesn't have to apply to everyone. But I'm surprised you and those upvoting you seem to reject the idea that power dynamics is an aspect of the oppression of women. Sure you should "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" but if your good looks are going to do it for you, or at least seem like they will, many women will take the offer at first - and risk becoming "barefoot and pregnant," or at least, dependent to a greater degree than they hoped.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Anyway, good for you if you never dealt with this or any of the mindsets listed, advice doesn't have to apply to everyone. But I'm surprised But I'm surprised you and those upvoting you seem to reject the idea that power dynamics is an aspect of the oppression of women.

I didn't say I never dealt with this or any of the mindsets listed. Actually, I'm well acquainted with them. But as a woman born in the US in the mid-1950s, I belong to a generation that analyzed these mindsets and made attempts to escape and surmount them decades ago.

I agree that advice "doesn't have to apply to everyone." That was sorta my whole point. The person who wrote this article seems to have a very narrow perspective coz she is blinkered by her own culture and age and can't see a bigger or different, more varied picture. I was pointing out that when giving her advice she should be clear about who she is and where she's coming from, and who her intended audience is.

In your comments you speak of

going to the prom with the star quarterback, marrying a successful businessman

as if the clearly American and capitalist cultural cues you cite are universal norms. But in the cultures and political systems that many people who now populate the earth have grown up in, no one has a clue what a prom or quarterback is, and marrying a successful businessman would not be seen an accomplishment. In countries like communist China, the Soviet bloc, Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge and even now, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, most of Africa and so other many places on earth where hundreds of millions of people grow up impoverished, going to the prom and being defined by Western capitalist "beauty culture" really isn't a thing. Or at least these are not things that figure large in their lives. Being sent out to work in fields or factories at age six is, however, very much a thing.

[–]ColoredTwice 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Beauty culture" is a big thing there actually. Even bigger than in the USA, especially in China and post-USSR. It is just even less controlled by a woman herself and forced much harder. It has very different look than american prom and beauty culture, in many cases I would not even call it "beauty" at all. Even in named Pakistan women are forced to wear specific dresscode and be "pretty to their husband only".

Marrying successful businessman will not be called accomplishment, she will be called "lucky" instead. In China it is very hard for successful or smart women, as mentality of people (and there was such law before) is that husband must be more educated or more successful than a woman, otherwise they both are bullied, so marrying more successful man is an easy way for chinese women as well.

Different cultures are very nuanced, but core rules of patriarcy are working the same everywhere.

[–]ColoredTwice 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

https://thecoffysalon.substack.com/p/what-is-life-after-onlyfans

From same author there. First part is wakywoky, but then goes more serious with examples saying sex work is miserable. Rare hear this from libfems.

This OnlyFans site is advertised really strongly everywhere, it is in many trends. Millions of teen and young women are selling nudes or porn there, as it is trendy and "cool and easy way to make money". They are hooked there, but what next? Porn industry is sick.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I wish the author of this, whoever she is, wouldn't generalize or universalize so much. For example, she starts out saying

I decided to write about mindsets that women often fall privy to. These are ideas that women believe and apply to their personal life that unintentionally undermine their progress in life.

In my view, better phrasing would be

I decided to write about mindsets that some women in my culture/country of residence <insert name of culture/place here> often fall privy to. These are ideas that some women of my generation <insert when she was born> and background <insert relevant info about class, religion, race> believe and apply to their personal life that unintentionally undermine their progress in life.

Throughout, she suggests that the experience of some girls and women from certain cultural and class backgrounds who've grown up at certain times in history (and apparently are similar to her) represents the one and only universal experience of girls and women everywhere on earth in every era since the dawn of time.

She also seems unaware that even amongst those who've grown up in a similar culture to hers, are from a similar background and from roughly same time period in history, not everyone necessarily responds to social and cultural conditioning in the same way. Some kids are suckers for the influence of pop culture and the bullshit the adults in their lives tell them, and are deeply influenced by it. Other kids take what the see, hear and are told with a measure of skepticism, and are able to slough it off. Some kids have trouble paying attention, and learning disabilities and processing issues that mean a lot of the stuff they're exposed to slides right over their heads.

For example, she takes it as a given that

as we grow older, we watch Disney movies and see a knight in shining armor coming to save girls that look like us.

The Damsel in Distress is a plot device in which a female character is placed in a perilous situation from which she cannot escape on her own and must then be rescued by a male character. We see this in a lot of Disney movies, the Mario brothers, Snow White, Cinderella, etc.

This assumes that every girl in the world has grown up on a steady diet of nothing but sexist Disney movies and European-origin fairy tales about females being rescued, and that all girls not only identify solely with the female characters in these stories, but they all look like the female characters too ("girls that look like us" - sheesh.) Hilariously, she assumes every girl in the world is acquainted with Mario Brothers too.

Worse, she assumes that every child who does consume a lot of Disney stories, fairy tales and Mario Brothers interprets and is influenced by them in exactly the same way.

She also goes on to claim

Beauty is often the first form of power that women are introduced to. The intoxicating feeling of being admired and praised for your looks become deeply inscribed in the psyche of young women. This forces women to become deeply invested in acquiring and maintaining the only form of power that they are allowed to have in a patriarchal society.

Wow, this narrow, sexist take might be true for some women, but it sure isn't for lots! Many girls around the world first experience power in all sorts of ways: doing physical activity like learning to walk, mastering skills like running, swimming, riding bikes, doing cartwheels, walking miles to a water source learning to carry a heavy jug of water on their heads; developing academic, intellectual, artistic, craft and language skills; becoming competent at a multitude of essential life tasks like caring for children and elders, preparing food, going to the market, doing chores, collecting firewood...

After all, even pretty girls in fairy tales don't sit usually around all day doing nothing but being pretty and ornamental; they usually have practical skills that give them a sense of competence - like being plenty capable at cleaning and scullery work, spinning and weaving, singing, hiking through the woods, and taking baskets of food goods to grandma's house and helping the old woman out. Also, the story of Snow White isn't just about a beautiful girl who was rescued in the end by a male savior's kiss - it's about how after being left alone in the big, dark scary forest she kept herself alive and unharmed for years by exercising exceptional survival skills - and social skills with the dwarves too. IIRC, Snow White also could communicate with animals - which in my book is pretty much a super power.

Also, the author's description leaves out the vast number of girls and women who've never had "the intoxicating feeling of being admired and praised for" their looks and therefore do not have this feeling "deeply inscribed" in their psyches. Coz they're either not particularly attractive according to their culture's beauty standards. Or they're kept at home or entirely covered up so no one outside their family can see what they look like. Or coz they don't give a shit.

According to this author, being beautiful is "the only form of power that (women) are allowed to have in a patriarchal society." I find this incredibly narrow-minded and offensive. It's like she's willfully ignoring all the gains that women have made over the course of history especially in the past 100 years that had nothing to with our looks. Women like Margaret Thatcher, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Madeleine Albright, Janet Yellen, Sonia Sotamayor, Deborah Birks, Golda Meir, Janet Reno, Jacinda Ardern and a zillion others over time from a variety of countries have gotten into positions of power through their intelligence, many skills and hard work - not coz of beauty.

She also suggests that all women grew up learning to be manipulative, and our main way of manipulating others is to use tears:

As babies, we learn to manipulate our parents. We learn that if we cry for long enough, our parents would come and respond to us.

WTF? Babies cry coz they're hungry, wet, soiled, sick, tired, teething, scared or otherwise in distress and need comfort. And coz they can't talk yet! They don't do it to manipulate; they have no other way of making their distress known. Suggesting babies cry to manipulate their parents is twisted, the stuff child abusers say. What projection.

Yes, some kids - of both sexes - do learn to use tears - as well as tantrums, whining and saying "I'm bored" and so on - to manipulate their parents. But they learn that later in childhood, not when they'e babies. And if kids get away with this kind of behavior and see as a way to manipulate others the rest of their lives, it's not their fault and shouldn't be taken as a sign that the children are inherently manipulative. The fault is with their parents for caving in and not teaching them how to express themselves in more direct, appropriate ways in order to get their needs met.

But the main point is: assuming and alleging that all girls grow up learning to use tears to manipulate is sexist tosh.

I'm all for women writing self-help material for other women - and think a lot of young women in countries like the US today would benefit from more of it. So kudos to the Coffysalon author for the effort. But it's gotta be written in a way that doesn't assume that the experience and POV of some women is that of all women. Doing this isn't impossible. It just requires that the author have self-awareness, be clear about the specific audience she is writing to/for/about, and employ more careful phrasing.

[–]whateverneverpine 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hear, hear! I found the article troubling and overgeneralizing as well. Enjoyed reading your insightful take.

[–]ColoredTwice 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This assumes that every girl in the world has grown up on a steady diet of nothing but sexist Disney movies and European-origin fairy tales about females being rescued, and that all girls not only identify solely with the female characters in these stories, but they all look like the female characters too ("girls that look like us" - sheesh.) Hilariously, she assumes every girl in the world is acquainted with Mario Brothers too.

That does not matter much, almost all popular stories are like this, or even worse, in all of the world. Disney stories are less hurtful than some on the East. You can replace Mario and Disney with anything else, and it will still work, those are just examples that are easier to understand to an average reader of this article.

Same with other parts of that article. Like "An Overinvestment in Beauty Ideals" point. Replace it with anything from another culture, the idea of point will not change - feet binding is still a thing, and it is done only because it is believed that feet binding makes sex for men feel better with such women, as it somehow makes vagina tighter. Neck binding in African and Asian parts of the world. Lip and ear plate and disc bindings are still practiced as well.

Point about "Making Radically Life-Altering Decisions Based On Love" stands true in many cultures as well. It changes how it looks, changes how it performed, but it is still there for majority of women. In many muslim and in some asian countries vagina is sewed early in life and first marriage night must be sex with husband tearing apart those seams, making women suffer for weeks after it, while everyone else is celebrating the marriage.

"Someone Is Coming To Save You" point works well as well, in some countries it is shameful for woman to fight back. In Caucasian mountains where I lived for some time, it was expected for men to revenge woman, and for woman to wait salvation. If woman was fighting back on herself, then she could be disowned by family. If she was raped, then she could be killed by her own family as well. It is same as damsel in distres, just more brutal than in Mario games. Mario games are just good example for western reader to understand what author means.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm glad you brought a variety of other cultures into the convo, but I don't think that the author of this piece was writing from such a broad perspective as you have - or had any awareness of it.

feet binding is still a thing

Pray tell, where? I want to know so I can bring attention to and protest this.

Neck binding in African and Asian parts of the world.

Can you be more specific? Africa and Asia are huge continents that account for the majority of the world's population and the majority of the world's countries - 102 out of 195.

This recent report suggests that neck binding in Asia is now a rarity that in many cases is being continued for tourism:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/world/asia/thailand-kayan-long-neck-refugee.html

Lip and ear plate and disc bindings are still practiced as well.

Are these only done on females?

Thank you for bringing attention to the sorts of female genital mutilation that still goes on in parts of the world.

You say "almost all popular stories" around the world are like the Disney stories and Mario Bros that the clearly Western and young author of this piece cites. Can you give some examples?

In the West, it seems to me that works by authors ranging from Homer, Chaucer and Shakespeare to Tolkien, Roald Dahl, Dr Seuss and JK Rowling are still widely promulgated and are quite popular and influential amongst young people. But perhaps I am misinformed.

Thanks.

[–]ColoredTwice 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As I said there - it does not matter is it based on Homer, Shakespeare or on Ramayana, if in both cases in Disney movies or Indian movies - women are depicted similarly, objectified similarly and they are often same "damsel in distres". Story itself does not matter, it can be about kings and queens, can be about barbarians or poor people, can be about hero, can be about villain. Hey, in modern age, even 1000 and 1 nights, which had very strong feministic views for its age - in modern day interpretations are much more leaning towards men in power, often forgetting Shahrezad at all (in both american Disny version or japanese versions of it - women are secondary heroes, and all is focused on male protagonist). If it is japanese Godzilla saving helpless woman and falling in love with her, or it is american King Kong doing the same - does it matter? If it is overly sexualized superheroine from DC or Marvel comic, or if it is overly sexualized magical woman from korean manhwa - does it matter? What only matter is that women are depicted similarly, regardles of origins or visuals. That is what matters and what should be focused. I don't care if woman is suffering because men are following traditions, religion or something else, I care that she is suffering.

People don't read and watch just few things, they see and read a lot of things. Even if one read Rowling, she can read Twilight as well. If she saw most feminist movies - she is still surrounded by other people and media. People are not shaped in isolation.

Same with mutilations - they are happening less often in their most extreme form nowadays and it is great, but they are still happening. While some of them are just becoming less harmful, other dissapear but are replaced with something else and new. Hey, even this transgender movement, previously emo and anorexia - all mutilate women's body, and women are doing that by their own. And point in article of OP is right about this, it says - "girl, no need of breast implants, no need of mascetomy", and it is very positive position and may help such girls to find their ground to stand against the pressure. In said Japan during recent fashion on crooked teeth, many school girls were wearing bracers to make teeth look broken and at different angles, just because "it was seen as sexy by boys and men", often harming jaw bones in the process, and later, when huge surge of western tourists started coming to Japan, "small feet" was praised, so a lot of school age girls were bending their feet on their own, to be more attractive (japanese culture is very centric on young girls and teens). You can find it everywhere, it does not need to be Disney or Mario, in all patriarchatic places the ways to control women are very similar in their idea, they are just different in their implementation or how they look, but the core, the core is always the same.

[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a great list to keep in mind (although maybe a little repetitive - is external locus of control very different from being a damsel in distress?). In Western culture, these traits can commonly be part of female socialization. The basic ideas, not being assertive and serving males, are things we come back around to over and over, but it's useful to see in contextualized descriptions that someone might recognize.