all 33 comments

[–]FlickingMarvellous 51 insightful - 6 fun51 insightful - 5 fun52 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Is there some set of core experiences distinctive of womanhood, some shared set of adventures and exploits that every woman will encounter on her journey from diapers to the grave?

Yes, there is. It’s called being female. Next question?

[–]BEB 30 insightful - 3 fun30 insightful - 2 fun31 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

The threat of being FORCED TO REPRODUCE every day of your life from about 12 to about 50.

So done with this gas-lighting bullshit from the self-described "Paper of Record"...

[–]BEB 25 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

The NEW YORK TIMES has become THE DAILY PRAVDA of Trans, Inc.

Seriously, NYT, give it a rest. Or maybe the NYT is TRYING to provoke a backlash against gender ideology?

[–]MarkTwainiac 23 insightful - 12 fun23 insightful - 11 fun24 insightful - 12 fun -  (0 children)

It's why many of us call it the NYTIMs and/or the NYTrans

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 20 insightful - 5 fun20 insightful - 4 fun21 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

There is definitely a wrong way to be a woman: it includes being born with a Y chromosome, dick and balls.

[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 4 fun18 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Top comment and its upvotes gives me hope.

[–]fuckingsealions 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Me too!!!

[–]Marsupial 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There's no wrong way to be a woman but not everybody is a woman. There's no wrong way to be a Tyrannosaurus Rex but not everybody is a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's no wrong way to be a Tyrannosaurus Rex

Marc Bolan & his band & their many fans might disagree, LOL:

https://youtu.be/w-G7-yLFmCQ

https://youtu.be/A4o4Q9sd_y4

https://youtu.be/XlON9nLDDPA

[–]jet199 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

No one's excluding them from womanhood.

We don't even have a hood.

Yet.

[–]MarkTwainiac 19 insightful - 5 fun19 insightful - 4 fun20 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

But they do. Trans, especially TIMs, now have several hoods of their own in Compton & San Francisco, CA: https://www.transgenderdistrictsf.com/about

https://www.thedailybeast.com/san-francisco-creates-worlds-first-ever-transgender-cultural-district

They're trying to get the Chicago nabe known as "Boystown" renamed "Queertown":

https://blockclubchicago.org/2020/07/06/as-boystown-reckons-with-racism-and-transphobia-petition-demands-gender-neutral-name-change/

In NYC, they're rewriting history so that Christopher Street, long famous as a central site for gay male congregation & cruising, becomes seen as a primarily transgender landmark where TIMs always reigned supreme. And a major state park in Brooklyn is being named after so-called "tranwoman" Marsha P Johnson - the gay male drag queen who did NOT start the Stonewall riots and did NOT "identify as" a woman.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/brooklyn-park-be-renamed-after-trans-activist-marsha-p-johnson-n1128441

[–]windrunner 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

There's not a "wrong way to be a woman" for transwomen because they are simply not women.

[–]chrysthefeminist 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's not a "wrong way to be a woman" for transwomen, there's NO way to be a woman.

[–]Carthimundia 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

The only reason why there is so much hand wringing and angst about the meaning of the word 'woman' is entirely due to bloody postmodernism getting its claws deep into feminism in the 80s and 90s. The author approvingly regurgitates Judith Butler like it's gospel: "By demarcating feminism’s subject matter — by articulating a concrete category of harms that deserved feminist attention — feminists inadvertently defined womanhood in a manner that implies that there are right and wrong ways to be a woman. “Identity categories are never merely descriptive,” she insists in “Gender Trouble,” “but always normative, and as such, exclusionary.”

What Butler means is this - by thinking there exists such a thing as the category 'woman' in the world, you are literally bringing that category into existence. 'Women' don't exist, pre given, in reality. We create them by talking about them. And when we create any category, that is automatically normative, with rules about how to be a member of that category. And that is also exclusionary - and being exclusionary is wrong. Butler is literally mad that feminists have the audacity to think feminism has a subject matter - 'women'. The solution, says Butler, is to get rid of this exclusionary, oppressive concept of 'woman'. There is no such thing as 'woman'.

Now, as far as theories go, it's fucking mad. There's no reason to believe it. It's a travesty that feminists have spent so much time thinking about this shite. Butler never provides any reasons or arguments for her points. She just pronounces things as if they are truths from the mouth of God. Firstly, most normal human beings are realists - that is, they believe there is an external world and things exist outside of ourselves. There is no reason to believe that 'woman' is not a natural, pre-existing concept as opposed to something we just fucking made up because.Secondly, there is no reason to think that delineating a category is necessary normative. Categories can be merely descriptive of the way things are, as opposed to the way things should be. And thirdly, Butler never explains what is so heinous about being 'exclusionary'. I don't fit the definition of being five years old, or being a dog, or being a millionaire, but it's odd to say that the categories themselves are exclusionary in any malicious sense. But years of postmodernist bullshit has led us to think that 'excluding' men from the category of women is bad somehow.

The absolutely worst thing about this shit is how it's so selectively applied. Postmodernism applies to everything - EVERY category is normative and exclusionary. Carving out categories like 'disabled', 'old', 'black', 'poor' are just as problematic to the postmodernist as the category 'woman'. And yet the only category which is ever held up as problematic is 'woman'. Why is that, I wonder? Could it possibly be convenient to deconstruct the concept of women the second that women actually start to make some material gains in the world? And why do people so unthinkingly accept a barmy, half baked piece of philosophy that stems very heavily from a few French, male, sexist thinkers?

[–]valleyoftherogue 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Judith Butler should be tried for murder--of the English language. She more than any other person is responsible for this linguistic b.s.

[–]Shesstealthy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The great irony is that these theories were almost certainly created as ways for women to bypass sex-based oppression and stereotyping.

And yet here we are, watching it work to the benefit of males above all else.

[–]our_team_is_winning 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Archived version: https://archive.is/zBP0U

Was the NYT once a prestigious paper?

Love how they bring in Sojourner Truth. They never miss a chance to say "if Black women are a type of women, then Trans are a type of women" --- such a disgusting part of their playbook.

[–]endless_assfluff 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

"The current debates over trans women bring us back to the question of what set of core experiences supposedly make someone who was assigned female at birth a “real” woman. Is it menstruation or childbirth? Nope — lots of women don’t experience those, either by fate or by choice. What about being subject to sexual violence and harassment? Trans women face as much if not more sexual violence than cis women. How about simply a lifetime of unwanted objectifying male sexual attention? There are plenty of women who don’t meet the standards of superficial sexual attractiveness who do not get such attention, and some of them even long for it. And surely we don’t want to go back to the days of defining women by their hormones or even their chromosomes — if for no other reason than we’d leave out the estimated 1.7 percent of women who are intersex."

Hmmmmmm.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Real head-scratcher. If only there were some... observable feature... doctors were taking into account when "assigning" femaleness at birth. Couldn't tell you. Still waiting for the politically correct explanation of where babies come from.

[–]sisterinsomnia 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I find the whole idea of discussing ways to be a woman inane to begin with. I am one and that is the end of the story. Whatever way I 'do' womanhood is correct because of that body I have. And the same applies to all other women. The gender woo just tries to turn sexist stereotypes into something desirable, in my opinion.

[–]Shesstealthy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Let's stop having this conversation about women. Let's instead have it about men.

[–]divingrightintowork 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

"When I, a cis woman, perform my not terribly original rendition of conventional femininity, I am in part saying that this is what women should be like. “In fashioning myself, I fashion Man,” Jean-Paul Sartre said. I might not always like it, but when I present myself in ways that I know that others around me will read as female, I’m not only going along with but actually affirming their conventional beliefs about what women are like. (This, in part, is the power of Butler’s advice to mess with our performances of gender: doing so unsettles people’s unthinking preconceptions.)

But if I’m as guilty of entrenching regressive gender stereotypes as anyone else, why do TERFs think it’s trans women who are specially culpable for shoring up gender essentialism? Why aren’t they going after cis women like me, too?"

Because here you are laying clear it is a performance of sex stereotypes, and this performance does not make you more female, and not doing them does not revoke your womanhood so easily.

[–]Carthimundia 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

She seems to be confused as to the difference between being feminine and being female. And yes, she is guilty of entrenching regressive gender stereotypes, but we're not allowed to criticise her for it because every time a rad fem tries to gently critique makeup or plastic surgery a million liberal feminists begin to wail that "I LIKE makeup! I choose it for MEEEE, not for MEN! It's CREATIVE.'

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We're on the same page, you just wrote it better than me :-)

[–]SaidOverRed 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Uh, okay OP is there a wrong way, out of any theoretical way, to be a woman? If so, what are some examples of theoretical "womanhood" that would be excluded and why?

Because I think yes, and I have examples with reasons, but I'd like other's opinion.

[–]lefterfield 20 insightful - 7 fun20 insightful - 6 fun21 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

Having a penis would be a wrong way to be a woman.

[–]SaidOverRed 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would hope that would be the ONE thing a man can't compromise on (and be blatantly obvious to all women). Or is that homophobic nowadays? I can't keep up anymore.

[–]LeaveAmsgAfterBeep 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m curious now, what were your ideas?

[–]CleverNickName 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I "like" how several times throughout the piece she accidentally describes why gender, gender identity, gender ideology, and gender stereotypes are harmful, only to then violently swerve into "but it's all the feminists' fault!" with no reason behind it.
It's like standing in front of a burning building, describing the girl with the matches in her hand to a T, but then pointing at the firefighter because his face is full of soot.

Also, the entire thing is railing against gatekeeping womanhood, but all her quotes from philosophers and authors are about femininity. People like her think The TERFs Are Mad™ because the men in dresses can't measure up to arbitrary and/or interchangeable standards of FEMININITY? When that's not even a question anyone is asking. We measure whether they're women, and they're not, because they're men. We didn't make them men! What are you mad at us for??

[–]raslyana 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Literally word salad

[–]yishengqingwa666 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

THE NY TIM does it again.

MEN ARE NOT ANY KIND OF WOMAN. EVER.

[–]moody_ape 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

no. it simply perpetrates the idea that men cannot be women.

[–]valleyoftherogue 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are men. There is no such thing as a "trans woman"--only crossdressers and transvestites. Of course they are excluded from womanhood and anything else to do with women because they are men.

I am so sick of this gaslighting I can scream.

[–]Aloudmeow 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Paywall.