To all of you trans ladies out there

submitted by AdmiralPangolin from self.GenderCritical

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[–]Spikygrasspod 35 insightful - 1 fun35 insightful - 0 fun36 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Beautiful and brave, just not women. Men. And that's okay. Also, arguments are valid in which the conclusion follows from the premises. I don't know what valid humans are though.

[–]bellatrixbells 37 insightful - 6 fun37 insightful - 5 fun38 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

I think it's unfair to call them men. They are males, and therefore not women, that is something I'll get behind, but I think calling them trans women instead is a very fair compromise. I mean, given that they go through everyday life as women and are treated as such by most of the people they encounter, they are in fact somewhere in between. They should not take our place, and neither of them wants to, but I think it's kind of in bad faith to just call them men.

[–]Spikygrasspod 63 insightful - 1 fun63 insightful - 0 fun64 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's not bad faith. It's a carefully considered position. I think 'woman' refers to a sex, not a social expression. I used to be very interested in compromise, but I am rapidly losing patience as I see people deliberately using our polite lies--that men can be a kind of sort of women if they try--to justify female erasure and male entry into women's spaces. Look at Rachel McKinnon. He says he's a legal female, therefore he's female, therefore he belongs in women's sports. He's using a legal fiction designed to reduce people's discomfort with reality in order to intrude on something women have carved out in an attempt to create substantial equality of opportunity in a male centric society. Maybe little linguistic concealments would be appropriate in a different political climate. But the equivocation of people like McKinnon forces people like me to clarify. Only men can be transwomen. There is nothing wrong with being a man. But there is something very wrong with appropriating womanhood.

[–]bellatrixbells 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I totally understand where you're coming from and the different political climate is an extremely important factor to me too. I've also lost the will to compromise even for seemingly reasonable people like those two. But I try not to cave in to that. To me, personally, they have proven to be people that I find worthy of this compromise. You are free to disagree. And I do understand that your position is carefully defined. It doesn't mean it cannot have elements of bad faith. Just because only men can be transwomen does not mean they are not transwomen. You're just choosing to use a terminology that you know they don't like, while TW does tell you everything you need to know. You don't need to clarify that only men can be transwomen on here, that's the whole point of this sub. We know. I find this kind of stubbornness comes across as provocation and is counterproductive.

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you should take another look at the definition of bad faith before you accuse anyone else of it. It refers to arguments made nominally to address the other person, but really to derail them. Uncharitable misinterpretations, strawmen, sealioning, etc.

I do call people trans women most of the time because it's an established term, like 'drag queen', with a meaning that people understand, that isn't necessarily misleading, and it isn't offensive to those it applies to. But they're also men and not women. I don't usually go about clarifying that to people's faces because many people have hitched their feelings to those categorisations in such a way that they'd be hurt. I think it's a mistake to build your feelings around an unreality, but that's another matter and it's their choice, not mine. I also think that using 'rudeness' and 'hurt feelings' to limit women's ability to speak about observable reality is a strategy of control. Control the language; control the perception. If there's ANYWHERE to say trans women are men, it's here, where we're all exploring GC views and learning not to censor ourselves as much as we do in real life. I DO need to clarify, because outside, people are still trying to tell me that men can be women, and they're vilifying anyone who disagrees. They are still trying to control my thoughts with accusations of hurt feelings, and I'll go mad if I can't say the truth now and then. So yeah, this is exactly the place for me to stretch my free speech without worrying about hurting anyone. I don't find it counterproductive, I find it consciousness raising. I may well be stubborn, however, thank you.