To all of you trans ladies out there

submitted by AdmiralPangolin from self.GenderCritical

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[–]bellatrixbells 37 insightful - 6 fun37 insightful - 5 fun38 insightful - 6 fun -  (40 children)

I think it's unfair to call them men. They are males, and therefore not women, that is something I'll get behind, but I think calling them trans women instead is a very fair compromise. I mean, given that they go through everyday life as women and are treated as such by most of the people they encounter, they are in fact somewhere in between. They should not take our place, and neither of them wants to, but I think it's kind of in bad faith to just call them men.

[–]Spikygrasspod 63 insightful - 1 fun63 insightful - 0 fun64 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

It's not bad faith. It's a carefully considered position. I think 'woman' refers to a sex, not a social expression. I used to be very interested in compromise, but I am rapidly losing patience as I see people deliberately using our polite lies--that men can be a kind of sort of women if they try--to justify female erasure and male entry into women's spaces. Look at Rachel McKinnon. He says he's a legal female, therefore he's female, therefore he belongs in women's sports. He's using a legal fiction designed to reduce people's discomfort with reality in order to intrude on something women have carved out in an attempt to create substantial equality of opportunity in a male centric society. Maybe little linguistic concealments would be appropriate in a different political climate. But the equivocation of people like McKinnon forces people like me to clarify. Only men can be transwomen. There is nothing wrong with being a man. But there is something very wrong with appropriating womanhood.

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 26 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

His efforts to silence Martina Navratilova and then his refusal to accept her apology peaked me. What a horrible human being.

Seriously fuck this male entitlement to women's spaces. We need to stand up for women and recalibrate the message.

[–]Spikygrasspod 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm also worried that we're in a situation where saying the truth is considered rude, or even hateful. We do need to recalibrate. Truth with compassion.

[–]jjdub7Gay Male Guest Commentator 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Martina actually presented a somewhat curious case in offering up her opinion publicly like that, given that Renee Richards was her longtime personal coach.

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh wow, I had no idea. Interesting that the judge said 'this person is now a female' and that requiring him to take a test was 'grossly unfair'. It's incredible how many people believe you can actually change sex.

[–]Daraincork 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Renee Richards has changed her opinion on the issue of transwomen in tennis. She says if she has transitioned at 22 and began competing at 24 she would have been unplayable. After all she gave Martina a good game when she was in her forties.

[–]jjdub7Gay Male Guest Commentator 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

The difference is that both Rose and Blaire are males who've undergone SRS and openly acknowledge the reality of their 'identities', for lack of a better term. Both of them are homosexual (male-attracted) transexuals (the canonical "true" trans, if you will). They are not the adversaries you're looking for in this fight.

Rhys McKinnon, on the other hand, is a sexually-intact, fully-male-bodied person taking estrogen and calling himself a "female" as if that were his innate biological sex and viciously attacks anyone who does not precisely confirm to his worldview. Rhys wants to be able to re-write the rules to be allowed in female-only intimate spaces as a male-bodied person - i.e. locker rooms, (the spaces formerly known as) lesbian bars, the now-defunct Mich-fest, etc. - with no concern for how his presence as such may violate the millennia-old standards of human decency that we've operated on since the dawn of civilization.

One of these two ideologies is driven by a legitimate medical phenomenon and would like nothing more than to mind its own business; the other is driven by pure, unbridled narcissism and demands your participation and submission.

The former deserves a modicum of respect for trying, even if you can't see eye-to-eye with it given your own lived experience. The other should be castigated at every opportunity.

[–]blackrainbow 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Blaire White has not undergone the Srs

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't see them as adversaries. I also don't think any amount of trying can make one female. I'm also worried that it's considered disrespectful to be honest about someone's sex, even when it's relevant to the conversation. But I guess I don't care what someone calls themselves as long as they aren't trying to undermine female separatism. Do Rose and Blaire demand access to women-only spaces?

[–]WrongToy 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Blaire White has said publicly many times that they are pre-op, and because they are they don't go into locker rooms.

[–]jjdub7Gay Male Guest Commentator 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the key is that they both make a point of keeping their "trying" confined to themselves and their person as much as possible.

Do Rose and Blaire demand access to women-only spaces?

IIRC Rose has made mention of using the womens' restroom, and I would assume Blaire does as well. That being said, they both pass and keep to themselves - just curious, do you think they would really need to "demand" access? Personally I'd say they probably both pass well enough that nobody would question just from a cursory interaction in passing, but then again I'm speaking as a man here. Though overall, I doubt they're doing the canonical TRA creepy weirdo stuff like taking bathroom selfies or striking up unwelcome conversations that would raise any eyebrows either.

[–]notdelusional 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Practising transgenderism is adversarial. Some forms are more or less so, but any promotion of the transgender concept is taking an adversarial position against the truth.

[–]jjdub7Gay Male Guest Commentator 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Perhaps, but if there's any perspective I've gained from being a gay man, there is a difference between practicing largely within your own space and outright imposing an (to use a fully-hackneyed term) "alternative lifestyle" on everyone you interact with.

[–]notdelusional 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Truth is not measured in levels. Something is either true or it isn't.

[–]bellatrixbells 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I totally understand where you're coming from and the different political climate is an extremely important factor to me too. I've also lost the will to compromise even for seemingly reasonable people like those two. But I try not to cave in to that. To me, personally, they have proven to be people that I find worthy of this compromise. You are free to disagree. And I do understand that your position is carefully defined. It doesn't mean it cannot have elements of bad faith. Just because only men can be transwomen does not mean they are not transwomen. You're just choosing to use a terminology that you know they don't like, while TW does tell you everything you need to know. You don't need to clarify that only men can be transwomen on here, that's the whole point of this sub. We know. I find this kind of stubbornness comes across as provocation and is counterproductive.

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you should take another look at the definition of bad faith before you accuse anyone else of it. It refers to arguments made nominally to address the other person, but really to derail them. Uncharitable misinterpretations, strawmen, sealioning, etc.

I do call people trans women most of the time because it's an established term, like 'drag queen', with a meaning that people understand, that isn't necessarily misleading, and it isn't offensive to those it applies to. But they're also men and not women. I don't usually go about clarifying that to people's faces because many people have hitched their feelings to those categorisations in such a way that they'd be hurt. I think it's a mistake to build your feelings around an unreality, but that's another matter and it's their choice, not mine. I also think that using 'rudeness' and 'hurt feelings' to limit women's ability to speak about observable reality is a strategy of control. Control the language; control the perception. If there's ANYWHERE to say trans women are men, it's here, where we're all exploring GC views and learning not to censor ourselves as much as we do in real life. I DO need to clarify, because outside, people are still trying to tell me that men can be women, and they're vilifying anyone who disagrees. They are still trying to control my thoughts with accusations of hurt feelings, and I'll go mad if I can't say the truth now and then. So yeah, this is exactly the place for me to stretch my free speech without worrying about hurting anyone. I don't find it counterproductive, I find it consciousness raising. I may well be stubborn, however, thank you.

[–]Susiesmum 23 insightful - 2 fun23 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They are men. Only men can be transwomen.

[–]Irascible-harpy 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

No, they absolutely do not "go through everyday life as women". They weren't socialized as women. They don't have female reproductive organs. They experience life as trans identifying men, not women, and that's the whole freaking point!

[–]bellatrixbells 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I understand what you're saying. I know this isn't a popular opinion on here, but I do believe that reasonable TIMs could get the courtesy of being referred to as "trans women", since they're not being dicks (pun intended) about it. The reason I'm definitely less inclined to do this is all the other TIMs, but then that's why I'm saying it sucks that those who are actually dysphoric and are just trying to get by are suffering consequences. I don't know if I'm making sense, regardless of whether you agree with me or not.

[–]yishengqingwa666 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

NATALT. Sure.

I am not giving misogynist males any kind of courtesy.

[–]Irascible-harpy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I understand what you're saying. I don't particularly care about them being referred to as transwomen but I reject using female pronouns. I reject the idea of catering to someone's mental illness, particularly one so steeped in sexist ideas. The idea that your rejection of your body and your gender somehow makes you the opposite sex or agender or non-binary... as though gender is real and immutable is absurd.

[–]bellatrixbells 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My own stance usually relates to my having been close to schizophrenic patients who suffered from severe delusions. Say you have a patient who thinks there's a clown standing next to you. If they've had proper therapy and are on the right meds they might still see the clown, but they know it's not really there. Sure, you shouldn't be catering by validating the existence of the clown, but constantly reminding them that there is no clown is not gonna solve the issue that they still see one and it's just gonna make them feel shitty.
That's my stance with GD.

[–]tuesday 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

trans woman black woman blond woman smart woman

trans wants you to include the space because they consider trans to be just another subset of women which is why we just write it as "transwoman" because in reality, transwoman is it's own distinct class of people sorry for the derail

[–]madderthanhell 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"...given that they go through everyday life as women and are treated as such by most of the people they encounter."... A vanishingly small number of TIMs actually "pass" as women. As such they are treated not as women but as what they are: men who LARP* as women, often as the most sexually objectified version of 'woman' they can put together. Aggressively requiring others to uphold their fantasy/delusion as 'real' exemplifies bad faith. edit *LARP = live action role play

[–]bellatrixbells 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well I don't know, I mean we were talking about two specific individuals who are generally being quite reasonable in their requests. I have heard claims that they were in fact being misogynistic and I can kind of get where those claims are coming from, but I don't necessarily agree. Both are quite open to hearing opposing opinions too and they DO stand for the rights of women to speak among themselves. And they are both of the opinion that someone with a penis should stay out of women's intimate spaces. That accounts for something.
And I understand where you're coming from with the LARP thing, but my point was I'm fairly sure a lot of people out there know neither of them and probably take them for women and therefore treat them the same way they would treat one of us. I mean, I myself struggle at times to remember that White is male, and I'm watching a video where they're actively reminding me constantly.
You're free to disagree, and this is the best platform to do so, but I personally don't have much of a problem with either of them, even though Blaire does go by a version of femininity that I do not like myself. It is however very coherent with the kind of femininity you will encounter on actual females in the LA culture where this person is evolving so I'm not sure it would be fair to blame it on them.

[–]GCSeedling 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

There is no "in between" men and women, and this whole comment would lead to a slippery slope.

[–]bellatrixbells 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Socially there is. That's what I meant and I don't see how it's a slippery slope.

[–]jjdub7Gay Male Guest Commentator 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

calling them trans women instead is a very fair compromise

Yeah those two are probably responsible for my current view of "males, sure, but not men, per se" when it comes to trans-med, dysphoric individuals. Also, gotta show love for my fellow homosexuals.

IIRC they both prefer to be primarily acknowledged as trans women (Rose/Blaire, if you see this and I'm wrong, feel free to clap back) and are very open about it. Both are purely pragmatic when it comes to terminology.

I have mad respect for them both for sticking to their message in the face of the abuse they get.

[–]bellatrixbells 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wholly agree. They actually seem like pretty cool people. Rose, especially, seems like someone I might actually hang out with.
Yes, both of them seem pretty clear about wanting to be referred to as trans women. They're both truscum, you know, and the slogan of truscum is that being trans matters, implying that it's invalidating to their whole experience to erase the trans part from their identity.
Their goal may differ from ours as they're defending their own interests but they're still pretty much on the team of common sense and coexistence and I believe it can only be good for us. All of us.

[–]notdelusional 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Lying is not compromise. Adding a prefix doesn't make it a truth.

[–]bellatrixbells 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

It's not lying. Those people are indeed trans. And given that they are males who transitioned into presenting themselves as women, I mean it's just a different thing. They're not women, but in many ways they are not exactly men either. I don't know.

[–]yishengqingwa666 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

They are still men, and will be until death. Men cannot become any kind of woman. Ever.

[–]notdelusional 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Correct. Promoters of the transgender concept are trying redefine the parameters of the term 'woman' to include the male sex into the collective consciousness. This way they could claim it's not an untruth on a technicality. It's very slippery and cunning. Unfortunately "well meaning" people aren't thinking critically about this issue and end up passively promoting this nonsense. Everybody knows that the term woman has included female as a fundamental requirement. It wasn't broken.

[–]bellatrixbells 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Hmm I don't think I'm unable to think critically.b It's just that I've dealt with people who had several issues relating to cognitive dissonance and I know it's no use reminding them all the time.

[–]notdelusional 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sometimes insisting on the truth is hard work.

[–]bellatrixbells 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And pointless too when the other person is just doing their best.

[–]notdelusional 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The truth always has purpose. Considering it pointless is an excuse for weakness.

[–]jjdub7Gay Male Guest Commentator 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Right, but if society can agree that the prefix "trans" in polite essence does just mean 'pretend'...ah well, then there's still the issue of single-sex spaces.

[–]notdelusional 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Deception is untruth. Giving a label (trans) to a lie doesn't make it a truth.

[–]yishengqingwa666 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Men are not any kind of woman. Ever.