GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (42 children)

I am truly sorry for your suffering - I genuinely am

Doubt. I am not asking you to solve my problem! I am solving it myself, through various ways of transition. You say it's biology; so then I'll change my biology and in the meantime I will just live pretending as if I have. It's not perfect but it's enough to get by.

If you truly want to find happiness

I'll find happiness when I'm female or at least not male anymore, not trapped in this body, and not a second before

The solution to your dilemmas as regards peeing goes is to campaign for additional spaces for people who don't want to use the single-sex spaces consistent with their/your own sex

I don't want additional spaces because I'm not an "additional sex". I'm a woman and identify with women and yeah I'm going to try and be cognizant of my appearance and all but I shouldn't need to walk on eggshells in order so that someone will not be upset by my mere existence anymore than other women should.

But women and girls have enough problems of our own to deal with

A lot of those problems are also the problems of trans women and girls. Not biological ones, but the misogyny that's directed at everyone because of that biology or the assumption of it. We should be helping each other solve that and for the most part trans people are pro bodily autonomy unlike the religious right who so many GCs seem to be fine allying with.

very entitled people with luxury beliefs

It's far from a luxury, but idk if I should be surprised y'all like Rowling here. I'm not trans because I thought it'd be a fun thing to do, I am because it was the only thing I could do.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (41 children)

A lot of those problems are also the problems of trans women and girls. Not biological ones, but the misogyny that's directed at everyone because of that biology or the assumption of it. We should be helping each other solve that and for the most part trans people are pro bodily autonomy unlike the religious right who so many GCs seem to be fine allying with.

This is forced teaming. It's a tactic abusers use.

You and I share common interests as human beings, and I am sure we are aligned on various political and social issues. But because we are different sexes, there are many experiences we do not share - and many places where our interests diverge.

You belong to the sex that for millennia has oppressed and abused my sex. I interpret the kind of attitudes you display as just more of the same sort of arrogant, selfish, male supremacist male entitlement that men and boys have been displaying for tens of thousands of years to lord it over women and girls, intimidate us, dehumanize us, bully us, keep us down and let us know that in their/your eyes we don't matter nearly as much as males do. I experience the intrusive, sex-appropriating and colonizing behaviors you are engaging as more of the same sorts of abusiveness that your sex has been dishing out to my sex for millennia.

You can tell yourself that you are a victim of misogyny until you are blue in the face. It won't make it so. Nor will it change the fact that I and many others think the attitudes that most males who call themselves TW have towards women and girls, the way you see and treat us, and the demands you are making of us, epitomize misogyny.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (40 children)

This is forced teaming

It's not forced it's just how things are?? It's allyship, there are plenty of things I don't experience too but I still support you in solving those issues even if it doesn't affect me.

You belong to the sex that for millennia has oppressed and abused my sex

Why does that mean I'm a horrible person though? I'm so sorry if in any of our conversations I've made you feel scared or intimidated. Really I am, I am truly trying to live my life as a woman without hurting anyone. But tbh... you don't really know much about me or my relationships with others. How I see myself has nothing to do with how I see you or other women or girls. I don't like it when people act misogynistically towards me, if that's what you think. It's just that just like everyone else I shouldn't be required or expected to escape from being targeted by not appearing as a woman.

Of course you matter as much, because you're a human being.

Not sure how I can be a male supremacist when I hate being male and everything that comes with it and so I am trying to change and be better. I've just realized that shouldn't include being a total doormat because that's kinda how I am irl.

Idk, I have enough self-respect to say I don't really think there's a point in talking to someone who thinks I am an abuser for being stealth trans. What am I supposed to say to that anyway? "Ok I won't be trans anymore"? I can and will be a good person who happens to be trans, even if you don't agree. I wish you well though

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

“It’s not forced it’s just how things are???”

It’s “just how things are” even though a large portion of women and girls don’t want that to be just how things are. Yet we are forced to deal with it. Do you get what I’m saying? By nature of it being “just how things are” it’s forced.

“I’m so sorry if any of our conversations I’ve made you feel intimidated or scared”

But not sorry if in real life your actions have made us feel intimidated or scared? Do you understand how scary that, in and of itself, is? That you would apologize if you said something but not when you actively do something?

Do you understand that effectively, you’re telling us that you don’t care that your presence in our spaces and corruption of the language we need to describe the reality of our lives is terrifying to many of us, but you’ll apologize if the way you word things is scary?

“Really I am, I am truly trying to live my life as a woman without hurting anyone…”

So then why do you not listen to the women who tell you that you are actually hurting us just by truly trying to do that? Instead you just tell us that some women don’t feel that way. You said you didn’t want to hurt anyone… the women who feel harmed by TW are a part of anyone. Why is it okay to disregard them?

Im not trying to attack you, and I know I’m not a part of this conversation, I just don’t understand this and so I had to ask.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

It’s “just how things are” even though a large portion of women and girls don’t want that to be just how things are

I didn't ever imply I think this is the way things should be?? But like misogyny exists yes and I don't want that to be how things are either.

Yet we are forced to deal with it

And you think that passing trans women aren't also forced to deal with it? (Some of it) We are, if you say we could just detransition to avoid it then why don't you transition? Because it's simply not who you are right? And that's okay, no one should be forced to perform to get by in the world.

That you would apologize if you said something but not when you actively do something?

What am I actively doing that's so terrible, y'all know v little about me?

Do you understand that effectively, you’re telling us that you don’t care that your presence in our spaces and corruption of the language we need

I care and try to make my presence as invisible as possible, I'm just not going to self-harm to make absolutely everyone happy. Like I try to minimize my public bathroom usage and use it when no one else is around but like I'm not going to use the men's room (where I'm way more likely to both be uncomfortable and make others uncomfortable) just because someone might be uncomfortable with the 30 seconds I'm in the bathroom and not in a stall. There's a bunch of ifs there, they'd need to both see me and clock me and be uncomfortable.

Also I literally never understand the language bit, language is always changing and evolving, trans women being counted as women doesn't mean that other women stop being such, or that when people hear "women" they think of you by default. Like I think that the gender neutral language used could be improved but I don't think the trans men I know should have to be referred to as women either. And I don't have any issue with how you define yourself and whether like, your sexuality excludes trans people or is sex-based. I think everyone should use the labels they feel best fit them.

So then why do you not listen to the women who tell you that you are actually hurting us just by truly trying to do that?

Because I've just been hurting myself in the process. Those women were harmed by trans women who are not me, it's awful but idk how I had a part in that. I hate predatory or abusivd people no matter what their gender is. And because literally every other person I talk to who's not involved in this "debate" (if you can even call it that), says that I'm being ridiculous by bending over backwards to appease GC people who will never accept me no matter what. Obvi I'll respect your personal boundaries and others' and if I knew you I would ofc wait to use the bathroom. I just won't assume that everyone dislikes or fears trans people as much as you seem to or that I'm hurting people by being trans.

Surely there are things about you that you wouldn't just stop if someone told you they didn't like it? You'd have to assess reasonably whether they're correct, I would hope you don't live your life tripping over yourself every time a random internet person were to baselessly call something you do abusive, you know? I used to and it's just bad for mentally to always be self-correcting

Being trans doesn't even feel like an action to me it's just like, a state of being, almost. I'm kinda past the point of thinking anything I could reasonably do would please GC 100%.

and dw it's okay! It's one big conversation I guess haha

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not going to use the men's room (where I'm way more likely to both be uncomfortable and make others uncomfortable) just because someone might be uncomfortable

Sorry, but when I read that and your other statements, the message I think you are telling me and other women is:

I am not going to use the men's room where I as a male who wants to be a woman am likely to be uncomfortable myself, and where I think I might make other males uncomfortable, just because some female people might feel uncomfortable and unsafe with males in women's restrooms. Because as a male, I believe that males have a right to not to feel uncomfortable ever, but female people do not have any such right - nor do female people have any right to safety, privacy or dignity, either.

Therefore, for the sake of my own personal comfort and the comfort of other members of my sex, I am going to use women's restrooms whenever I want. If this causes some women and girls to feel unsafe, uneasy, uncomfortable, intruded upon and disrespected - tough noogies.

If my using women's restrooms means women and girls from certain religions and cultures such as observant Muslims and orthodox Jews no longer will be able to use women's restrooms and thus will have no place to tend to their intimate bodily needs outside their homes, and they thus no longer will be able participate in life outside the home as they could until recently, tough noogies.

If my use of women's restrooms means women's restrooms become inhospitable and off limits to women and girls in certain life circumstances or dealing with certain female-only physical issues that cause women and girls to feel especially vulnerable and to really, really need privacy from males - such as menstruation, pregnancy vomiting, pregnancy hemorrhoids and rectal bleeding, post-birth or termination vaginal bleeding and clotting, heavy vaginal bleeding due to fibroids or menopausal flooding, miscarriage, leaking breasts and amnio fluid, urinary and fecal incontinence due to aging and a history of childbirth, cystitis, vaginal yeast infections requiring application of medications, disrobing to wash off bloodstains, breastmilk and baby vomit from their clothing - tough noogies.

If women voice their objections to me and other males using women's restrooms, I will tell them

it's just how things are.

And as the coup de grace, I will add

It's allyship.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is just a really really long way to put words in my mouth.

Because as a male, I believe that males have a right to not to feel uncomfortable ever, but female people do not have any such right

I never said that and I do not believe it. I'm uncomfortable no matter what.

for the sake of my own personal comfort

Just this, not the rest. If any other kind of woman was expected to make herself uncomfortable because some others may be uncomfortable, you'd be rooting for her, might I add.

If my use of women's restrooms means women's restrooms become inhospitable and off limits to women and girls in certain life circumstances

No idea how me using the bathroom could ever cause this

If my using women's restrooms means women and girls from certain religions and cultures such as observant Muslims and orthodox Jews

What? How would it mean this, if they don't know? How is it my responsibility if they don't use it because of the mere possibility that someone--they won't even know who--who is trans uses the same room?

it's just how things are.

Because I'm a woman and I'm not going to be bullied into otherwise.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

We weren’t talking about how things should be- you said this is how it is. Don’t backtrack unless you’re going to delete the comment so you can pretend that’s not what you said.

Women should not be forced to share language, spaces, sports, etc with you because you transitioned. Period. No one is forcing you to transition, not transition, or detransition. Your transition has an effect on us. We have to deal with You corrupting our spaces and language regardless of how we feel. What do you not get? Your transition forces women and girls to have no choice or say in our own spaces.

Passing TW are not forced to deal with it, they are the very thing women have to deal with (along with the ones who don’t pass).

What are you doing that’s so terrible?

Calling yourself a woman when you literally can’t ever be one

Using our spaces when they were literally designed to keep you (males) out

And other things that you specifically may not be doing (as you said I know little about you) but that a lot do other TW are doing.

Your presence shouldn’t have to be something women have to deal with at all, no matter how small you make your presence.

So… it’s not okay to possibly maybe make other men or yourself uncomfortable but it is acceptable to make women uncomfortable for the 30 seconds you’re in our spaces. Got it.

The OP of this post shared a link a while back that actually indicates that the number of people who want trans people to use the bathrooms meant for their sex is actually increasing every year.

Language does evolve- but the language we have actually does accurately define and describe tw, just not the way they want to. Language doesn’t evolve to accommodate the personal sense of self of 1% of the human population

You don’t listen to those women because your wants and needs matter more than those of women. Glad you made that clear.

There are things about myself I wouldn’t stop if someone told me they didn’t like it. None of those things involve trying to redefine words because I want them to apply to me or invading other people’s safe spaces. If they did involve those things, I would stop.

We are correct- TW aren’t women and female spaces are for women and girls. You just can’t accept we are correct because you don’t want us to be correct. As I said, if you can’t prove it and we can, you’re wrong. Until you can prove it, you can’t really claim that what I just said isn’t true, all you can say is that it’s not true to you. You are one of billions. If billions of people- literally all people, even you- just existing proves what gc is saying, it’s pretty self serving to pretend that what I said is wrong.

I agree that being trans is a state of being. So is being a woman. The problem is that your state of being impacts my life and my rights and my equality. My being a woman doesn’t have that effect on you. It’s not my fault that you’re not a woman. It’s not anyones fault.

It’s not just gc. I know plenty of people who don’t even know the term gc and feel the same way that I do. There are little girls in schools who feel unsafe in their bathrooms and locker rooms just because one boy- one- claims to be a girl and solely based on that claim has been given access to female spaces in school. Hundreds of girls who can’t vote and don’t know the term gc being held hostage to the whims and feelings of one boy. Same with sports. Many of Lia Thomas’ teammates have protested and spoken out, but one male’s sense fo self matters more than almost his entire team not wanting him to compete with or against them. That’s bullshit. That’s what I mean by forced. And none of his teammates have called themselves gender critical.

Edit- fixed typo

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Do you not think that how it currently is in the world that women and girls experience misogyny though, sorry idk if I'm understanding

Women should not be forced to share language, spaces, sports, etc with you because you transitioned

You don't own language or public spaces. I don't have a stance on sports bc I'm not an athlete idk

Your transition forces women and girls to have no choice or say in our own spaces.

You have the same choice we do, the choice on what you personally want to do. You don't have say over what other people do. You believe that you should be able to choose for others, for trans women, for me, and tbh that makes you no different than anyone before you who thought they should be able to choose for any other kind of woman

Calling yourself a woman when you literally can’t ever be one

Terrible how? At worst I'm guilty of lying and then that depends on your moral calculus for which lies are okay really

Using our spaces when they were literally designed to keep you

There's no electric fence that zaps ppl who have XY chromosomes on the way in, just the general social understanding that people who appear male shouldn't be in there. Everyone ik tells me I pass fine and I'm not just talking about hugbox-y friends

acceptable to make women uncomfortable for the 30 seconds you’re in our spaces. Got it.

There's a small chance that someone will be uncomfortable regardless. Would you just not use the bathroom if idk, you had a lot of piercings and someone didn't like that? I can pick between almost certainly making at least two people uncomfortable (myself and a man) or one with the chance that someone might be (myself and a woman who clocked me). I'm going with the lower chance.

The OP of this post shared a link a while back that actually indicates that the number of people who want trans people to use the bathrooms meant for their sex is actually increasing every year.

Yeah well when there's a trans panic y'all have literally contributed to whipping up causing trans ppl to be called slurs or assaulted or harassed online I'm not surprised that people have internalized the lie that trans people are dangerous

Language doesn’t evolve to accommodate the personal sense of self of 1% of the human population

It does if enough people use it. If more and more ppl who aren't trans see the merit in recognizing someone's gender separate from their sex, that just means our transsexual-meme-virus-whatever is succeeding

You don’t listen to those women because your wants and needs matter more than those of women. Glad you made that clear

Yeah my wants and needs matter more than the wants and needs of the dozen or so GCers I've interacted with online, sorry. Also it's not like you care about the needs of trans women at the expense of your own either.

There are things about myself I wouldn’t stop if someone told me they didn’t like it

Well yeah and being trans is one of those things for me and like I said I really do try and be invisible but the only answer you'll ever accept from me is if I were to call myself a man and use men's spaces. That's a total non-starter

You just can’t accept we are correct because you don’t want us to be correct.

I disagree with your framework that you use to claim to be "correct". You haven't proven why my sex should be at all meaningful to how I live my life and how I pretend to be.

There are little girls in schools who feel unsafe in their bathrooms and locker rooms just because one boy- one- claims to be a girl and solely based on that claim has been given access to female spaces in school.

Is that kid actually making anyone unsafe though? She's a kid, having her use the boys room is just going to make her and boys uncomfortable. They aren't being held hostage because no one is telling them what to do or that they can't use the girl's room.

Many of Lia Thomas’ teammates have protested and spoken out

Many have supported her too! I don't really like lia personally from what I've heard from a mutual friend, but ultimately if she shouldn't be competing that's the athletic organizations fault and she is just following that the same as other athletes. It wasn't just her decision.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

A huge part of the misogyny we face is men claiming womanhood for themselves. That’s not an issue TW have to deal with. It’s an issue TW cause.

To be frank, even males who aren’t TW can experience some degree of the effects of misogyny. Being effeminate, being short, being gay… they get ridiculed and mocked or even harmed for those things (not necessarily the height thing, but an average sized man may well think he can pick on or harm a smaller man). So TW experiencing some aspects of misogyny doesn’t mean they have that in common solely with women.

Actually- the women’s room is for women. See that apostrophe? It indicates ownership. A female sign on a space indicates that’s who the space is meant for. A word having a clear meaning (as all words do) indicates it means what that meaning is. So no, I don’t own the word woman, but it applies to me and not to you, so you have less of claim on it than I do.

Im not an athlete either. It matters to me because I’m a woman.

Not enough people are using it how you want them to to claim the language evolved. Just because some will go along doesn’t mean the language evolved. It means one people are being kind to you. And as I said, more and more people want you to use the space designated to you based on your sex. This is not an indication that language is evolving at all.

Jesus I didn’t know you meant online, specifically. So you’re not even basing this on people in the real world in real time. You’re basing it on sites you frequent that are full of people who a) think like you or b) know they have to use certain language and not say certain things to be allowed in that space.

So… even though there’s only dozens of people online who are gc we are responsible for all of these people changing their minds? Even though according to you there are infinitely more people who agree with you? Sure. That tracks.

Literally I didn’t say you shouldn’t be trans or that you being trans offends me. I didn’t ask you to stop being trans lol

It’s not my framework. It’s biology. You haven’t disproven biology lol

You live your life as a trans person. That would mean that your sex is quite possibly the biggest factor in how you live your life…

So fuck the feelings of all those girls for the sake of one boy? He may feel the same feelings he’s forcing those girls to feel if he has to use the boys spaces but he’s a fucking boy so it’s not the same issue. Since he’s a child, he hasn’t transitioned so I doubt the other boys would be uncomfortable. No they aren’t telling little girls they can’t use the girls room. They’re telling little girls they don’t deserve to have their own spaces were they feel safe using the bathroom all because one male wants access to spaces meant for girls. They’re telling girls that male feelings matter more than the sense of safety and comfort for all of the girls at the school.

Many supporting him doesn’t detract from the people who have to actually compete with him thinking it’s unfair. Many don’t support him. He literally got booed. Almost all of the audience literally refused to applaud his win and applauded the female who came in second place because they knew she was the true winner in a competition meant to be amongst women.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

A huge part of the misogyny we face is men claiming womanhood for themselves

If you mean trans women then idk I've always seen it as more of like, a becoming or sense of belonging? Like...it took me years of passing before I actually started to come out of my shell, I literally never came out and demanded anyone call me new pronouns. It just gradually happened.

To be frank, even males who aren’t TW can experience some degree of the effects of misogyn

I agree but like it's for different reasons, because they're seen as "effeminate" or "failed" men, the harassment feels different and has different reasons and manifestations

So no, I don’t own the word woman, but it applies to me and not to you, so you have less of claim on it than I do.

It applies to me in my everyday life too

And as I said, more and more people want you to use the space designated to you based on your sex

Hopefully people become less transphobic over time and reverse that, otherwise the only trans people using those bathrooms will be people who pass and we would have to deal with potentially being accused of a crime every time we go out in public. Which is absurd.

So… even though there’s only dozens of people online who are gc we are responsible for all of these people changing their minds

You and the far right that co-opts your rhetoric because you both hate trans people, and there are more of them than there are GCers.

I didn’t ask you to stop being trans lol

You're asking me to accept being a man and use the men's room though?

They’re telling girls that male feelings matter more than the sense of safety and comfort

Safety and comfort are subjective feelings too. That kid is not a threat just because she's trans. Unless and until she is actually endangering them, she should be able to use the room. She's a kid, probably nervous as hell and wants to fit in. No, I don't think their feelings should outweigh her right to use the bathroom any more than anyone else's feelings should prevent any other woman or girl from using it.

she was the true winner

Again it's the organizations fault but Lia still won according to the rules at the time

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I understand feeling a sense of becoming or belonging- but claiming you can become a woman or belong with women is misogynistic in itself. A male person can’t become a woman. And it’s wrong for a male to claim they belong with women just because that is what they want or even because that’s where the feel most comfortable. You can’t ever really understand what it is to be a woman. Even if you appear female and people treat you as one (whatever that actually means), you’re still experiencing it in a male body and from a male’s perspective. It’s not the same. Women aren’t gradually treated as women- we are always treated as female humans, and that influences our perspectives in ways that your perspective can’t ever be influenced. There is nothing tying women to transwomen other than their insistence on being tied to us. It is forced on us. Which is the point I made in my first comment.

Men get harassed. This is a thing that happens. What specific thing can TW experience that only women experience? Even if someone discriminates against you because they think you’re a woman, you have the option to clarify. You choose not to. You can literally opt out of being treated like a woman if you admit you aren’t one. I get why you won’t, but you have that option. Women don’t.

As I’ve said so many times- you saying it applies to you doesn’t make that true. It doesn’t. It can’t. It never will. And you can’t even prove how it does. You just state it and I’m supposed to accept it and that’s honestly an incredibly stereotypically male way of thinking.

Hope all you want- the influx of people siding with you has already passed. That’s proven by the statistic I referenced and others that show a decline annually.

If you pass nobody would accuse you of anything because nobody would know you were in the wrong space. So if you personally pass and intend to pretend you’re a woman you’ve nothing to worry about in bathrooms or other female spaces. Unless you don’t actually pass as well as you think you do. Regardless of how it effects you, regardless of whether or not you pass, women and girls deserve their own spaces.

It wouldn’t matter who speaks out against TW if the majority is on your side. Clearly they aren’t, if people who aren’t gc or “alt right” agree with what we are saying about trans people. Alt righters are anti abortion, most women I know, even most men I know, are pro choice yet against the spaces and sports and language issues concerning trans people. People can and do think for themselves. A large part of people changing their views on trans people is the inability of trans people to prove the things they claim. That’s what made be become gc. Literally trans people. Not gc. Not alt right. Transwomen and transmen and so called enbies themselves made me gender critical.

Im asking you to respect women and leave us and our spaces alone. Pee where ever else you have to to do that.

Tell the little boy I referenced that safety and comfort are subjective, then! He’s not gonna fit in when half the school resents him and he’s made them all feel uncomfortable lol. Him wanting to be a girl isn’t going to make girls see him as one any more than him wanting to be a woman when he grows up will make anyone see him as one. It’s ridiculous and the best example of male privilege I can think of that his feelings matter more than how those girls feel. Why should his feelings outweigh the feelings of multiple girls in his school? Even of the parents of children at the school? Why exactly do the feelings of trans people always matter more than everyone else’s feelings?

Lia is a man who shouldn’t have even been there. The rule is fucked up and it only exists to placate men. That’s again- my whole point. We are forced to live with rules that undermine our equal rights for the sake of men. You pointing out that it’s a rule is just you making my point. Males can dictate what rules women have to abide by, and even when we are vocal about disagreeing and it being unfair, we get told it’s the way it is. By men. Who made it the way it is. It’s how it’s always been for women, the only difference now is that it’s being done by and for men claiming to be women instead of just men dictating to women in general.