GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

“It’s not forced it’s just how things are???”

It’s “just how things are” even though a large portion of women and girls don’t want that to be just how things are. Yet we are forced to deal with it. Do you get what I’m saying? By nature of it being “just how things are” it’s forced.

“I’m so sorry if any of our conversations I’ve made you feel intimidated or scared”

But not sorry if in real life your actions have made us feel intimidated or scared? Do you understand how scary that, in and of itself, is? That you would apologize if you said something but not when you actively do something?

Do you understand that effectively, you’re telling us that you don’t care that your presence in our spaces and corruption of the language we need to describe the reality of our lives is terrifying to many of us, but you’ll apologize if the way you word things is scary?

“Really I am, I am truly trying to live my life as a woman without hurting anyone…”

So then why do you not listen to the women who tell you that you are actually hurting us just by truly trying to do that? Instead you just tell us that some women don’t feel that way. You said you didn’t want to hurt anyone… the women who feel harmed by TW are a part of anyone. Why is it okay to disregard them?

Im not trying to attack you, and I know I’m not a part of this conversation, I just don’t understand this and so I had to ask.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

It’s “just how things are” even though a large portion of women and girls don’t want that to be just how things are

I didn't ever imply I think this is the way things should be?? But like misogyny exists yes and I don't want that to be how things are either.

Yet we are forced to deal with it

And you think that passing trans women aren't also forced to deal with it? (Some of it) We are, if you say we could just detransition to avoid it then why don't you transition? Because it's simply not who you are right? And that's okay, no one should be forced to perform to get by in the world.

That you would apologize if you said something but not when you actively do something?

What am I actively doing that's so terrible, y'all know v little about me?

Do you understand that effectively, you’re telling us that you don’t care that your presence in our spaces and corruption of the language we need

I care and try to make my presence as invisible as possible, I'm just not going to self-harm to make absolutely everyone happy. Like I try to minimize my public bathroom usage and use it when no one else is around but like I'm not going to use the men's room (where I'm way more likely to both be uncomfortable and make others uncomfortable) just because someone might be uncomfortable with the 30 seconds I'm in the bathroom and not in a stall. There's a bunch of ifs there, they'd need to both see me and clock me and be uncomfortable.

Also I literally never understand the language bit, language is always changing and evolving, trans women being counted as women doesn't mean that other women stop being such, or that when people hear "women" they think of you by default. Like I think that the gender neutral language used could be improved but I don't think the trans men I know should have to be referred to as women either. And I don't have any issue with how you define yourself and whether like, your sexuality excludes trans people or is sex-based. I think everyone should use the labels they feel best fit them.

So then why do you not listen to the women who tell you that you are actually hurting us just by truly trying to do that?

Because I've just been hurting myself in the process. Those women were harmed by trans women who are not me, it's awful but idk how I had a part in that. I hate predatory or abusivd people no matter what their gender is. And because literally every other person I talk to who's not involved in this "debate" (if you can even call it that), says that I'm being ridiculous by bending over backwards to appease GC people who will never accept me no matter what. Obvi I'll respect your personal boundaries and others' and if I knew you I would ofc wait to use the bathroom. I just won't assume that everyone dislikes or fears trans people as much as you seem to or that I'm hurting people by being trans.

Surely there are things about you that you wouldn't just stop if someone told you they didn't like it? You'd have to assess reasonably whether they're correct, I would hope you don't live your life tripping over yourself every time a random internet person were to baselessly call something you do abusive, you know? I used to and it's just bad for mentally to always be self-correcting

Being trans doesn't even feel like an action to me it's just like, a state of being, almost. I'm kinda past the point of thinking anything I could reasonably do would please GC 100%.

and dw it's okay! It's one big conversation I guess haha

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not going to use the men's room (where I'm way more likely to both be uncomfortable and make others uncomfortable) just because someone might be uncomfortable

Sorry, but when I read that and your other statements, the message I think you are telling me and other women is:

I am not going to use the men's room where I as a male who wants to be a woman am likely to be uncomfortable myself, and where I think I might make other males uncomfortable, just because some female people might feel uncomfortable and unsafe with males in women's restrooms. Because as a male, I believe that males have a right to not to feel uncomfortable ever, but female people do not have any such right - nor do female people have any right to safety, privacy or dignity, either.

Therefore, for the sake of my own personal comfort and the comfort of other members of my sex, I am going to use women's restrooms whenever I want. If this causes some women and girls to feel unsafe, uneasy, uncomfortable, intruded upon and disrespected - tough noogies.

If my using women's restrooms means women and girls from certain religions and cultures such as observant Muslims and orthodox Jews no longer will be able to use women's restrooms and thus will have no place to tend to their intimate bodily needs outside their homes, and they thus no longer will be able participate in life outside the home as they could until recently, tough noogies.

If my use of women's restrooms means women's restrooms become inhospitable and off limits to women and girls in certain life circumstances or dealing with certain female-only physical issues that cause women and girls to feel especially vulnerable and to really, really need privacy from males - such as menstruation, pregnancy vomiting, pregnancy hemorrhoids and rectal bleeding, post-birth or termination vaginal bleeding and clotting, heavy vaginal bleeding due to fibroids or menopausal flooding, miscarriage, leaking breasts and amnio fluid, urinary and fecal incontinence due to aging and a history of childbirth, cystitis, vaginal yeast infections requiring application of medications, disrobing to wash off bloodstains, breastmilk and baby vomit from their clothing - tough noogies.

If women voice their objections to me and other males using women's restrooms, I will tell them

it's just how things are.

And as the coup de grace, I will add

It's allyship.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is just a really really long way to put words in my mouth.

Because as a male, I believe that males have a right to not to feel uncomfortable ever, but female people do not have any such right

I never said that and I do not believe it. I'm uncomfortable no matter what.

for the sake of my own personal comfort

Just this, not the rest. If any other kind of woman was expected to make herself uncomfortable because some others may be uncomfortable, you'd be rooting for her, might I add.

If my use of women's restrooms means women's restrooms become inhospitable and off limits to women and girls in certain life circumstances

No idea how me using the bathroom could ever cause this

If my using women's restrooms means women and girls from certain religions and cultures such as observant Muslims and orthodox Jews

What? How would it mean this, if they don't know? How is it my responsibility if they don't use it because of the mere possibility that someone--they won't even know who--who is trans uses the same room?

it's just how things are.

Because I'm a woman and I'm not going to be bullied into otherwise.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

We weren’t talking about how things should be- you said this is how it is. Don’t backtrack unless you’re going to delete the comment so you can pretend that’s not what you said.

Women should not be forced to share language, spaces, sports, etc with you because you transitioned. Period. No one is forcing you to transition, not transition, or detransition. Your transition has an effect on us. We have to deal with You corrupting our spaces and language regardless of how we feel. What do you not get? Your transition forces women and girls to have no choice or say in our own spaces.

Passing TW are not forced to deal with it, they are the very thing women have to deal with (along with the ones who don’t pass).

What are you doing that’s so terrible?

Calling yourself a woman when you literally can’t ever be one

Using our spaces when they were literally designed to keep you (males) out

And other things that you specifically may not be doing (as you said I know little about you) but that a lot do other TW are doing.

Your presence shouldn’t have to be something women have to deal with at all, no matter how small you make your presence.

So… it’s not okay to possibly maybe make other men or yourself uncomfortable but it is acceptable to make women uncomfortable for the 30 seconds you’re in our spaces. Got it.

The OP of this post shared a link a while back that actually indicates that the number of people who want trans people to use the bathrooms meant for their sex is actually increasing every year.

Language does evolve- but the language we have actually does accurately define and describe tw, just not the way they want to. Language doesn’t evolve to accommodate the personal sense of self of 1% of the human population

You don’t listen to those women because your wants and needs matter more than those of women. Glad you made that clear.

There are things about myself I wouldn’t stop if someone told me they didn’t like it. None of those things involve trying to redefine words because I want them to apply to me or invading other people’s safe spaces. If they did involve those things, I would stop.

We are correct- TW aren’t women and female spaces are for women and girls. You just can’t accept we are correct because you don’t want us to be correct. As I said, if you can’t prove it and we can, you’re wrong. Until you can prove it, you can’t really claim that what I just said isn’t true, all you can say is that it’s not true to you. You are one of billions. If billions of people- literally all people, even you- just existing proves what gc is saying, it’s pretty self serving to pretend that what I said is wrong.

I agree that being trans is a state of being. So is being a woman. The problem is that your state of being impacts my life and my rights and my equality. My being a woman doesn’t have that effect on you. It’s not my fault that you’re not a woman. It’s not anyones fault.

It’s not just gc. I know plenty of people who don’t even know the term gc and feel the same way that I do. There are little girls in schools who feel unsafe in their bathrooms and locker rooms just because one boy- one- claims to be a girl and solely based on that claim has been given access to female spaces in school. Hundreds of girls who can’t vote and don’t know the term gc being held hostage to the whims and feelings of one boy. Same with sports. Many of Lia Thomas’ teammates have protested and spoken out, but one male’s sense fo self matters more than almost his entire team not wanting him to compete with or against them. That’s bullshit. That’s what I mean by forced. And none of his teammates have called themselves gender critical.

Edit- fixed typo

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (34 children)

Do you not think that how it currently is in the world that women and girls experience misogyny though, sorry idk if I'm understanding

Women should not be forced to share language, spaces, sports, etc with you because you transitioned

You don't own language or public spaces. I don't have a stance on sports bc I'm not an athlete idk

Your transition forces women and girls to have no choice or say in our own spaces.

You have the same choice we do, the choice on what you personally want to do. You don't have say over what other people do. You believe that you should be able to choose for others, for trans women, for me, and tbh that makes you no different than anyone before you who thought they should be able to choose for any other kind of woman

Calling yourself a woman when you literally can’t ever be one

Terrible how? At worst I'm guilty of lying and then that depends on your moral calculus for which lies are okay really

Using our spaces when they were literally designed to keep you

There's no electric fence that zaps ppl who have XY chromosomes on the way in, just the general social understanding that people who appear male shouldn't be in there. Everyone ik tells me I pass fine and I'm not just talking about hugbox-y friends

acceptable to make women uncomfortable for the 30 seconds you’re in our spaces. Got it.

There's a small chance that someone will be uncomfortable regardless. Would you just not use the bathroom if idk, you had a lot of piercings and someone didn't like that? I can pick between almost certainly making at least two people uncomfortable (myself and a man) or one with the chance that someone might be (myself and a woman who clocked me). I'm going with the lower chance.

The OP of this post shared a link a while back that actually indicates that the number of people who want trans people to use the bathrooms meant for their sex is actually increasing every year.

Yeah well when there's a trans panic y'all have literally contributed to whipping up causing trans ppl to be called slurs or assaulted or harassed online I'm not surprised that people have internalized the lie that trans people are dangerous

Language doesn’t evolve to accommodate the personal sense of self of 1% of the human population

It does if enough people use it. If more and more ppl who aren't trans see the merit in recognizing someone's gender separate from their sex, that just means our transsexual-meme-virus-whatever is succeeding

You don’t listen to those women because your wants and needs matter more than those of women. Glad you made that clear

Yeah my wants and needs matter more than the wants and needs of the dozen or so GCers I've interacted with online, sorry. Also it's not like you care about the needs of trans women at the expense of your own either.

There are things about myself I wouldn’t stop if someone told me they didn’t like it

Well yeah and being trans is one of those things for me and like I said I really do try and be invisible but the only answer you'll ever accept from me is if I were to call myself a man and use men's spaces. That's a total non-starter

You just can’t accept we are correct because you don’t want us to be correct.

I disagree with your framework that you use to claim to be "correct". You haven't proven why my sex should be at all meaningful to how I live my life and how I pretend to be.

There are little girls in schools who feel unsafe in their bathrooms and locker rooms just because one boy- one- claims to be a girl and solely based on that claim has been given access to female spaces in school.

Is that kid actually making anyone unsafe though? She's a kid, having her use the boys room is just going to make her and boys uncomfortable. They aren't being held hostage because no one is telling them what to do or that they can't use the girl's room.

Many of Lia Thomas’ teammates have protested and spoken out

Many have supported her too! I don't really like lia personally from what I've heard from a mutual friend, but ultimately if she shouldn't be competing that's the athletic organizations fault and she is just following that the same as other athletes. It wasn't just her decision.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

A huge part of the misogyny we face is men claiming womanhood for themselves. That’s not an issue TW have to deal with. It’s an issue TW cause.

To be frank, even males who aren’t TW can experience some degree of the effects of misogyny. Being effeminate, being short, being gay… they get ridiculed and mocked or even harmed for those things (not necessarily the height thing, but an average sized man may well think he can pick on or harm a smaller man). So TW experiencing some aspects of misogyny doesn’t mean they have that in common solely with women.

Actually- the women’s room is for women. See that apostrophe? It indicates ownership. A female sign on a space indicates that’s who the space is meant for. A word having a clear meaning (as all words do) indicates it means what that meaning is. So no, I don’t own the word woman, but it applies to me and not to you, so you have less of claim on it than I do.

Im not an athlete either. It matters to me because I’m a woman.

Not enough people are using it how you want them to to claim the language evolved. Just because some will go along doesn’t mean the language evolved. It means one people are being kind to you. And as I said, more and more people want you to use the space designated to you based on your sex. This is not an indication that language is evolving at all.

Jesus I didn’t know you meant online, specifically. So you’re not even basing this on people in the real world in real time. You’re basing it on sites you frequent that are full of people who a) think like you or b) know they have to use certain language and not say certain things to be allowed in that space.

So… even though there’s only dozens of people online who are gc we are responsible for all of these people changing their minds? Even though according to you there are infinitely more people who agree with you? Sure. That tracks.

Literally I didn’t say you shouldn’t be trans or that you being trans offends me. I didn’t ask you to stop being trans lol

It’s not my framework. It’s biology. You haven’t disproven biology lol

You live your life as a trans person. That would mean that your sex is quite possibly the biggest factor in how you live your life…

So fuck the feelings of all those girls for the sake of one boy? He may feel the same feelings he’s forcing those girls to feel if he has to use the boys spaces but he’s a fucking boy so it’s not the same issue. Since he’s a child, he hasn’t transitioned so I doubt the other boys would be uncomfortable. No they aren’t telling little girls they can’t use the girls room. They’re telling little girls they don’t deserve to have their own spaces were they feel safe using the bathroom all because one male wants access to spaces meant for girls. They’re telling girls that male feelings matter more than the sense of safety and comfort for all of the girls at the school.

Many supporting him doesn’t detract from the people who have to actually compete with him thinking it’s unfair. Many don’t support him. He literally got booed. Almost all of the audience literally refused to applaud his win and applauded the female who came in second place because they knew she was the true winner in a competition meant to be amongst women.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

A huge part of the misogyny we face is men claiming womanhood for themselves

If you mean trans women then idk I've always seen it as more of like, a becoming or sense of belonging? Like...it took me years of passing before I actually started to come out of my shell, I literally never came out and demanded anyone call me new pronouns. It just gradually happened.

To be frank, even males who aren’t TW can experience some degree of the effects of misogyn

I agree but like it's for different reasons, because they're seen as "effeminate" or "failed" men, the harassment feels different and has different reasons and manifestations

So no, I don’t own the word woman, but it applies to me and not to you, so you have less of claim on it than I do.

It applies to me in my everyday life too

And as I said, more and more people want you to use the space designated to you based on your sex

Hopefully people become less transphobic over time and reverse that, otherwise the only trans people using those bathrooms will be people who pass and we would have to deal with potentially being accused of a crime every time we go out in public. Which is absurd.

So… even though there’s only dozens of people online who are gc we are responsible for all of these people changing their minds

You and the far right that co-opts your rhetoric because you both hate trans people, and there are more of them than there are GCers.

I didn’t ask you to stop being trans lol

You're asking me to accept being a man and use the men's room though?

They’re telling girls that male feelings matter more than the sense of safety and comfort

Safety and comfort are subjective feelings too. That kid is not a threat just because she's trans. Unless and until she is actually endangering them, she should be able to use the room. She's a kid, probably nervous as hell and wants to fit in. No, I don't think their feelings should outweigh her right to use the bathroom any more than anyone else's feelings should prevent any other woman or girl from using it.

she was the true winner

Again it's the organizations fault but Lia still won according to the rules at the time

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

I understand feeling a sense of becoming or belonging- but claiming you can become a woman or belong with women is misogynistic in itself. A male person can’t become a woman. And it’s wrong for a male to claim they belong with women just because that is what they want or even because that’s where the feel most comfortable. You can’t ever really understand what it is to be a woman. Even if you appear female and people treat you as one (whatever that actually means), you’re still experiencing it in a male body and from a male’s perspective. It’s not the same. Women aren’t gradually treated as women- we are always treated as female humans, and that influences our perspectives in ways that your perspective can’t ever be influenced. There is nothing tying women to transwomen other than their insistence on being tied to us. It is forced on us. Which is the point I made in my first comment.

Men get harassed. This is a thing that happens. What specific thing can TW experience that only women experience? Even if someone discriminates against you because they think you’re a woman, you have the option to clarify. You choose not to. You can literally opt out of being treated like a woman if you admit you aren’t one. I get why you won’t, but you have that option. Women don’t.

As I’ve said so many times- you saying it applies to you doesn’t make that true. It doesn’t. It can’t. It never will. And you can’t even prove how it does. You just state it and I’m supposed to accept it and that’s honestly an incredibly stereotypically male way of thinking.

Hope all you want- the influx of people siding with you has already passed. That’s proven by the statistic I referenced and others that show a decline annually.

If you pass nobody would accuse you of anything because nobody would know you were in the wrong space. So if you personally pass and intend to pretend you’re a woman you’ve nothing to worry about in bathrooms or other female spaces. Unless you don’t actually pass as well as you think you do. Regardless of how it effects you, regardless of whether or not you pass, women and girls deserve their own spaces.

It wouldn’t matter who speaks out against TW if the majority is on your side. Clearly they aren’t, if people who aren’t gc or “alt right” agree with what we are saying about trans people. Alt righters are anti abortion, most women I know, even most men I know, are pro choice yet against the spaces and sports and language issues concerning trans people. People can and do think for themselves. A large part of people changing their views on trans people is the inability of trans people to prove the things they claim. That’s what made be become gc. Literally trans people. Not gc. Not alt right. Transwomen and transmen and so called enbies themselves made me gender critical.

Im asking you to respect women and leave us and our spaces alone. Pee where ever else you have to to do that.

Tell the little boy I referenced that safety and comfort are subjective, then! He’s not gonna fit in when half the school resents him and he’s made them all feel uncomfortable lol. Him wanting to be a girl isn’t going to make girls see him as one any more than him wanting to be a woman when he grows up will make anyone see him as one. It’s ridiculous and the best example of male privilege I can think of that his feelings matter more than how those girls feel. Why should his feelings outweigh the feelings of multiple girls in his school? Even of the parents of children at the school? Why exactly do the feelings of trans people always matter more than everyone else’s feelings?

Lia is a man who shouldn’t have even been there. The rule is fucked up and it only exists to placate men. That’s again- my whole point. We are forced to live with rules that undermine our equal rights for the sake of men. You pointing out that it’s a rule is just you making my point. Males can dictate what rules women have to abide by, and even when we are vocal about disagreeing and it being unfair, we get told it’s the way it is. By men. Who made it the way it is. It’s how it’s always been for women, the only difference now is that it’s being done by and for men claiming to be women instead of just men dictating to women in general.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

You can’t ever really understand what it is to be a woman

What would it take? No two women have the same perspective and experiences, there are women who do not menstruate, who cannot have children, who have an intersex condition. They're still women. There are surely a very small few who by chance or a superbly safe environment largely escape male violence as children and are suddenly exposed to it as adults.

People's perspectives can change, it's super bioessentialist to say that people born a certain way can only ever have certain mental states and cannot ever understand someone else's perspective. Yeah I do not know what it is like to be raised female but there isn't some universal ideal there, I just had a weird and uncharacteristic childhood. I didn't choose that, I am trying to unlearn and forget and focus on what I actually have chosen. What I experience now is more in line with women than it is with men, men simply aren't bothered by the same concerns I have. If I have to reverse engineer influences on my brain to feel "the right way" that you think women should feel then I will eventually do that it's just a matter of time.

Men get harassed. This is a thing that happens. What specific thing can TW experience that only women experience

Men don't get harassed on the basis of being women. We do. Men don't know I'm trans when they harass me, or talk over me at work. These are all things that my women coworkers also go through.

Men don't even have solidarity with each other, they don't need to; they certainly don't have solidarity with trans women. They either treat us as freaks or tools to fuck or laugh at. I am not a freak or a tool and I relate to the thousands of women before me who have been treated that way.

You choose not to. You can literally opt out of being treated like a woman if you admit you aren’t one. I get why you won’t, but you have that option. Women don’t.

I choose not to because I shouldn't have to be a man to escape shitty treatment, that shitty treatment is exactly the problem! And you do have that option, but I get why you won't. You shouldn't have to. Yeah, trans men do not escape all misogyny, especially medical, but it does lessen one's exposure from what I've heard talking to them.

influx of people siding with you has already passed. That’s proven by the statistic I referenced and others that show a decline annually.

Well trans people are not going away, I don't know exactly what you hope to accomplish. If I'm going to get thrown in jail for taking hrt or wearing a bra someday then it'd be pretty clear to me who's in the right and wrong.

There's no combination of words I could possibly type that would ever prove it to you. It's pointless for me to try. I could change every cell and structure in my body and I'd still have some "male essence" according to y'all. There are women as steadfast in their beliefs as I am in line. You don't call them stereotypically male, you wouldn't ask them to prove to you that say, male violence is bad. I know myself.

Unless you don’t actually pass as well as you think you do.

I pass to nearly everyone except myself. That's just how it is because I'm usually incapable of seeing myself in a positive light. I'm only confident because of what others tell me and the lack of any incident.

inability of trans people to prove the things they claim.

We just don't operate in the same framework at all. I cannot and will not define myself by my biology or sex, you seemingly cannot or will not define me by my social experiences.

Pee where ever else you have to to do that.

There is nowhere else...

Tell the little boy I referenced that safety and comfort are subjective, then

No, I'll tell her she should do what makes her comfortable.

Why should his feelings outweigh the feelings of multiple girls in his school?

No one's feelings outweigh anyone else's, it is everyone's choice what bathroom they want to use or not use. if people don't want to use the same bathroom as a trans person, that is for them to figure out.

Who made it the way it is

I know representation is not always the best but I'd hope that the committee decided was at least half women...and the committee or organization that decide are experts, it's their job to dictate to people who are not as knowledgeable. I'm not knowledgeable or neither are you so idk why we should be on the panel making the rules.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Well trans people are not going away, I don't know exactly what you hope to accomplish. If I'm going to get thrown in jail for taking hrt or wearing a bra someday then it'd be pretty clear to me who's in the right and wrong.

No one is saying trans people to go away. Women are saying that we don't want males in female spaces and sports no matter how the males claim to identify and no matter what alterations males have made to their bodies and appearance.

It's not personal. Most of us have male friends and relatives we love dearly. Some of us have male children. But we still don't want even the males we love and trust- and we know wouldn't hurt a fly or behave like pervs and predators - in women's spaces and sports.

In certain women's spaces like restrooms, locker rooms, fitting rooms, breastfeeding lounges, women's homeless shelters, some prisons, etc exception is made for male infants and young boys who are in the company of their mothers or other female carers. But even there we draw a very strict line. The fact that women and girls don't want to have to deal with our intimate bodily needs and get undressed in front of our male friends and with our tween, teen and adult sons, our fathers, uncles, fathers-in-law etc doesn't mean we hate them.

And in some cases, there is no allowance even for very young boys. We don't allow boys who are not as good as other boys in male sports to play girls' sports. Or we didn't used to until males very recently started using gender identity claims to invade and dominate in girls' and women's sports.

And please enough with the drama. No one is going to throw you in jail for taking exogenous hormones or wearing a bra.

The underlying issue here is that you seem to be unable to deal with women saying "no" to you. You think women saying "no" is the same as us saying we hate you. You interpret women setting boundaries as an expression of personal animus directed at you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Women are saying that we don't want males in female spaces and sports no matter how the males claim to identify and no matter what alterations males have made to their bodies and appearance.

I'm saying you don't have the right to universally treat trans women as males just because of our biology or birth sex no matter what we've changed about ourselves.

But we still don't want even the males we love and trust

Males aren't deserving of trust and love

Or we didn't used to until males very recently started using gender identity claims to invad

Can you name one person who's done that, who's not trans and just faking it?

And please enough with the drama. No one is going to throw you in jail for taking exogenous hormones or wearing a bra.

Maybe not but you would if I let people assume I'm a woman in public and don't announce my transness when I go to work or use the bathroom.

You think women saying "no" is the same as us saying we hate you.

You treating me as something I never asked for and that I'm actively in the process of changing, no matter what I do, yes, is the same as saying you hate me. You have personal boundaries like everyone else! but a bathroom is not a personal boundary that you get to exclude an entire group of women from.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

You know what? It’s been explained so many times by multiple women and you just can’t listen because it’s not what you want to hear. It takes being a female. You’re not a female. It’s super fucking simple. Women who don’t or can’t menstruate can’t for a reason and all women understand the fear of a missed period or concern of not having ever gotten a period because we are supposed to menstruate. It means something is going on with our bodies. Something usually tied directly to being female. You don’t get your period because you’re a man. That’s not a thing women can relate to. No woman doesn’t get a period because she’s a man. You will never know what it is to be a female and fortunately for you you will never know how fucking insulting all of your comments are to women. Stop trying to force yourself into womanhood. you can’t, and it makes you seem grossly misogynistic and shows how little you truly understand anything about women. Stop. Please. Goddamn. I’d never try to speak on what it means to be trans because it’s not something I understand. But somehow a TW can know what it means to be a woman? It’s ridiculous.

Again, men get harassed. By other men.or women. They get talked over. By other men. Or women. Women aren’t women because we get harassed or talked over by men. Are the women who talk over other women or even harass other women now men? You make no sense and you sound desperate as fuck. Nobody is a woman or a man based on whether they get harassed or do the harassing.

Trans people can stay I don’t give a fuck just leave everyone else and female spaces alone. Use whatever false language you want to and express whatever misogynistic views you obviously believe- just leave everyone else and female spaces the fuck alone because if other TW think like you I don’t want them anywhere near me ever.

There is nothing you can do or say to not make you an obvious man with an obviously male mentality, no there isnt. When you can change your cells and gametes and chromosomes and organs and skeleton and brain to have none of those things indicate you’re male then sure you’ll be a woman. Nothing less will work. You will be a man LARPing as a woman until then. That’s just how it be.

Even if you do pass the things you say probably give you away if you talk irl the way you type here.

I don’t need you to prove male violence is bad it just has nothing to do with being a woman. And it’s not your views on male violence that show your obvious male way of thinking. The male violence stuff just seems like you grasping at straws.

You don’t have a framework. You base your womanhood on your narcissism and dysphoria. I base your lack of womanhood on biology and reality.

If there’s nowhere else you should still leave female spaces the fuck alone because you’re actually kind of creepy despite saying that you’re safe for us to be forced to share spaces with. Seriously I can’t imagine invading a space where I know I’m not wanted and that I know makes others uncomfortable. Especially a space not meant for me in the first place. Let alone doing it routinely. Jesus. I can’t imagine telling a group of people who have nothing in common with me thst just because I want it so badly, I’m a part of that group. So fucking invasive and disrespectful.

Of course you’d tell a little boy that his feelings matter more than little girls. Male solidarity and what not lol

You can’t say in one sentence that no one’s feelings matter more than another’s after saying you’d tell that boy that he should disregard all the girls at his school lol. Hypocrite much?

I am knowledgeable lmao. And lia is a manly man who looks and is built like the man he is so he shouldn’t have been allowed if women have equality.

I honestly have to end this particular thread because you’re too much here. I can only deal with so much misogyny from a male claiming to be a woman before I get rude and frustrated so I’m backing off. It’s truly equal parts hilarious and terrifying that someone who thinks like this thinks they’re a woman.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

You will never know what it is to be a female

Mm, bet. I'll still be trying, it's just on medical science to catch up.

But somehow a TW can know what it means to be a woman?

I don't know what it's like to be you, or female, just what it's like to be my current self and how others perceive me. I can't just stop my dysphoria it's not how it works it's just part of me.

Nobody is a woman or a man based on whether they get harassed or do the harassing.

I didn't mean to imply this, I'm sorry. People are men or women regardless, I was talking about things that trans women have in common.

just leave everyone else and female spaces the fuck alone

I've never gone into a space where it's been specifically made clear I'm not wanted or where I can infer it. Like I wouldn't join a club for women and when I needed a place to stay because of DV I sheltered at a friend's. I only decided to use the bathroom after women friends of mine kept insisting.

What does "leave everyone else" alone mean in this context though like you already know I'm stealth irl?

sure you’ll be a woman

Okay yeah I'll be sure to let you know I want to do all of those things

Even if you do pass the things you say probably give you away if you talk irl the way you type here.

🙄 1. I don't talk the same I'm way less talkative 2. You are just trying to make me feel bad

You don’t have a framework. You base your womanhood on your narcissism and dysphoria.

I had a neuropsych eval to try and find out if I was npd because my mom likely is but unfortunately for ppl throwing this accusation around at any and all trans people, I'm just a weird anxious young adult with gender dysphoria. But yeah my framework is just based on what someone says they are.

Seriously I can’t imagine invading a space where I know I’m not wanted

I don't do this though I literally only started using any public bathrooms because every single person around me told me I was being ridiculous and that it would be fine?? Like im hyperaware and terrified of upsetting someone but there's never been an issue and I can't just go back to holding it, and I can't make myself use the men's room. Like imagine how that would be at work, none of my coworkers know I'm trans so when I'm at the office where am I supposed to pee?

I need to use the bathroom to be able to live publically. I don't need to join other spaces especially when ppl in that space have said or implied they wouldn't want me there. There just isn't any consensus like that for public bathrooms.

Idk it seems like you think I just barge in anywhere and everywhere and that's not the case whatsoever.

You can’t say in one sentence that no one’s feelings matter more than another’s after saying you’d tell that boy that he should disregard all the girls at his school lol. Hypocrite much?

Idk how it's hypocritical when I literally said every person should decide what bathroom they want to use without being restricted by others.

Of course you’d tell a little boy that his feelings matter more than little girls. Male solidarity and what not lol

The kid's gender isn't the point I'd say a trans boy should be able to use the bathroom he wants to too.

I am knowledgeable lmao

Okay I will take your word for it. You should be helping make the decisions then. Do you have to misgender Lia or me though?

I mean this whole post and a lot of the thread is just you misgendering me and all that. You'd probably be more rude if the sub didn't have rules idk. I'm sorry if I'm frustrating to talk to. I don't wish you banned or anything.