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[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (20 children)

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

Or someone who appears to be a trans woman?

Huh? These questions show you believe women can always, usually or frequently tell when males are in women's restrooms, no matter how those males identify or present. This stands in stark contrast to the standard QT party line, which is that none of us can ever tell.

The fact that you asked about

a trans woman in the women's restroom

And

someone who appears to be a trans woman

In the next breath also is an open acknowledgment that there's no way for women to know if a male is "genuinely trans" or not.

Genderbender, I hate to break it to you, but the questions you've posed would cause many to accuse you of transphobia.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

The fact that you refer to trans women as "males" will more likely cause people to accuse you of transphobia.

Anyway, Keira Bell is a detransitioned woman and I can understand how how someone like her in appearance and voice could be mistaken for a trans woman.

Also I think its obvious I'm referring to trans women who don't pass.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

The fact that you refer to trans women as "males" will more likely cause people to accuse you of transphobia.

Yeah, so? I've been called worse; and I can take it. It's you I was talking about. I thought appearing transphobic is something you'd want to avoid at all costs, and being accused of transphobia is something you might be concerned about.

Tellingly, you didn't address any of my points. Instead, you immediately brought up Keira Bell and tried to make it seem like the issue you raised is whether

someone like her in appearance and voice could be mistaken for a trans woman.

Which is ridiculous. Look at Bell's face, hands, feet, body shape, bone structure and the way Bell moves and walks.

Keira Bell is also totally beside the point in this particular convo, which you started. Because you specifically asked

GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

Or someone who appears to be a trans woman?

Now you say:

I think its obvious I'm referring to trans women who don't pass.

But I thought passing didn't matter? That trans people don't owe it to the world to do anything to change their appearance to try to pass as the opposite sex. Because everyone is just supposed to believe that trans people are whatever sex they say they are.

Also, since you brought up "passing": who decides who "passes"? Most males who identify as trans think and insist that they pass, but many female people like me disagree. Whose perception do you think should win out here?

The central point remains: the questions you raised are a tacit admission that you believe women (who are GC) can always, usually or frequently tell when males are in women's restrooms, no matter how those males identify or present. This goes against the fundamental part of the QT creed which says that none of us can ever tell because it's impossible for anyone to figure out if adult and post-pubescent males are actually male without "looking in their pants" and doing DNA tests.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

Yeah, so? I've been called worse; and I can take it. It's you I was talking about. I thought appearing transphobic is something you'd want to avoid at all costs, and being accused of transphobia is something you might be concerned about.

I have multiple reddit accounts and on one of them I used to regularly post on r/gendercynical a few years back and no one ever accused me of transphobia. I have never once been accused of transphobia in my life.

Which is ridiculous. Look at Bell's face, hands, feet, body shape, bone structure and the way Bell moves and walks.

There are people who are assigned male at birth with the same features.

But I thought passing didn't matter?

Passing ultimately doesn't matter but a passing trans woman will of course not be questioned in the woman's restroom so in this context it's relevant.

Also, since you brought up "passing": who decides who "passes"? Most males who identify as trans think and insist that they pass, but many female people like me disagree. Whose perception do you think should win out here?

My question is ultimately referring to anyone who is perceived by GC as a trans woman. Some trans woman do pass, like Jazz Jennings, Laverne Cox and MJ Rodriguez. Caitlyn Jenner doesn't pass but that's just my perception.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I saw Laverne Cox in person once. Seeing someone in 3 dimensions in the flesh is very different to seeing them in a still photo or on screen. IRL, I don't think Cox passes at all.

When photographed standing alone in a still shot, like in the famous TIME magazine cover, or when Cox is filmed or taped alone in a position where Cox isn't moving around too much, like in the recent video Cox did promoting a project on women's history, maybe a few people here and there might think Cox passes for a second or two. But when seen amongst other people, and especially when seen next to or near adult human females, Cox stands out like a proverbial sore thumb.

Cox is huge, with very broad shoulders, a very large head, giant hands and feet. Even when Cox is wearing the usually big head of store-bought, teased-up hair grown by impoverished, downtrodden girls and women in the third world, Cox's skull and the way Cox's head sits on Cox's neck are unmistakable tells that Cox is male - especially when Cox is seen in profile or partial profile rather than straight on from the front. Then when Cox gets moving on Cox's feet, there is no way anyone on earth would think that Cox has the gait, stride or foot plant of a female person.

I say none of this as diss on Cox. It's just that evolution has caused the males and females of our species to develop innumerable physical features that make it easy for most people to tell the sex of adolescents and adults pretty much instantly on first sight without any or much conscious thought. Due to evolution, our female socialization growing up, and years of lived experience always having to be on the alert, most women are really, really good at instantaneously sizing up and sussing out the sex of the adolescents and adults we encounter. Our safety depends on this skill.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

“Some trans women do pass, like Jazz Jennings, Laverne Cox and MJ Rodriquez.”

Have you never seen any of these people? None of them pass at all.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Jazz Jennings and Laverne cox do not pass in any situation.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (11 children)

If I didn't know they were trans I wouldn't be able to tell they are trans just by looking at them or hearing them.

[–]BiologyIsReal 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Wait, but isn't Laverne Cox that huge dude who appears in a well-known picture where he is standing next to a short woman who is about half his height? If so, there is no way he "pass", even if he weren't a celebrity. And I know you'll point out that there are some very tall women too, but they are rare. Laverne Cox's height alone should draw enough attention to himself that anyone who met him would notice his other male features later.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

Cox is 5′ 11 so she isn't super tall and tall cis women aren't rare. I know a few of them.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Let's use real data. According to this height percentile calculator, a 5 feet 11 inches man is taller than 77.07% of adult males from the US. In constranst a 5 feet 11 inches woman is taller than 99.88% of adult females from the US. So, I stand by what I said: Laverne Cox stands out because of his height.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

OK, but Cox uses she/her pronouns and everyone should respect that.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not just Cox's height, though. Cox is large all over. Large head, shoulders. Just a big person who tends to dwarf a lot of other people. Men as well as women, but especially the women.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/actress-laverne-cox-and-her-mother-gloria-cox-attend-the-news-photo/614477874

https://www.zimbio.com/photos/Laverne+Cox/Elliot+Page/LV9bDS2XqIA/25th+Annual+GLAAD+Media+Awards+Backstage

https://m.imdb.com/name/nm2914715/mediaviewer/rm2887365377?context=default

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/laverne-cox-and-rita-moreno-attend-the-13th-annual-outfest-news-photo/865258976?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/laverne-cox-and-rosario-dawson-attend-tribeca-tv-festivals-news-photo/1038129590?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/pictured-laverne-cox-and-rosanna-arquette-news-photo/1006191860?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/sarah-jessica-parker-and-laverne-cox-attend-the-planned-news-photo/953564194?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/trudie-styler-and-laverne-cox-attend-the-2017-outfest-los-news-photo/816110678?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/laverne-cox-and-marlee-matlin-attend-the-academy-museum-of-news-photo/1345723686?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/lisa-kudrow-laverne-cox-and-dan-bucatinsky-attend-the-who-news-photo/968046890?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/adrienne-bailon-laverne-cox-and-jeannie-mai-attend-the-news-photo/854596658?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/actresses-elizabeth-mclaughlin-gabrielle-carteris-awkwafina-news-photo/1072209364?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/actresses-gabrielle-carteris-laverne-cox-and-awkwafina-news-photo/1072209258?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/laverne-cox-and-maxine-waters-attend-families-belong-news-photo/988397030?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/todays-guest-include-laverne-cox-and-meghan-mccain-on-news-photo/457233328?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/cupp-and-jason-biggs-guest-co-host-kate-hudson-and-emmy-news-photo/452546272?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/netflix-chief-content-officer-and-co-ceo-ted-sarandos-and-news-photo/1392865875?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/co-ceo-and-chief-content-officer-at-netflix-ted-sarandos-news-photo/1392853807?adppopup=true

https://www.glaad.org/blog/listen-your-children-access-hollywood-speaks-laverne-coxs-mother-gloria-backstage-glaadawards

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/dwayne-johnson-and-laverne-cox-attend-the-peoples-choice-news-photo/1357819947?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/laverne-cox-abd-jussie-smollett-attend-the-26th-annual-news-photo/472808126?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/co-ceo-and-chief-content-officer-at-netflix-ted-sarandos-news-photo/1392844906?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/jimmy-kimmel-live-airs-every-weeknight-at-11-35-p-m-est-and-news-photo/614699128?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/darren-criss-and-laverne-cox-attend-the-25th-annual-screen-news-photo/1090492998?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/actor-wilson-cruz-and-laverne-cox-celebrate-at-beverly-news-photo/965870886?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/news-photo/1095510162?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/if-it-aint-burke-dont-fix-it-episode-405-pictured-laverne-news-photo/514345636?adppopup=true

[–]Juniperius 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Have you watched Orange is the New Black? Laverne Cox towers over all the women, he isn't shaped at all like them, and he's got the voice and mannerisms of a "flaming" gay man. There is nothing the slightest bit woman-like about him.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And yet hundreds, thousands, of other people were able to at a glance.

How come you answer this but not me asking if you thought we’d be starting fights or attacking the men in question.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have multiple reddit accounts and on one of them I used to regularly post on r/gendercynical a few years back and no one ever accused me of transphobia. I have never once been accused of transphobia in my life.

So? If you posted points you've made on this thread on social media sites frequented by TRAs, I suspect they'd call you transphobic in a flash.

Passing ultimately doesn't matter

Then why are you making such a big deal about it? You seem to divide TW into two groups based on your own personal assessments of whether they pass, as you demonstrate here:

Some trans woman do pass, like Jazz Jennings, Laverne Cox and MJ Rodriguez. Caitlyn Jenner doesn't pass but that's just my perception.

Seems you view Jennings, Cox and Rodriguez as having a more valid and legitimate claim to call themselves TW than Jenner does. That's transphobic because it runs counter to the QT commandment that says trans people are whomever and whatever they say they are.

Why do you give your own perceptions more credence than Jenner's claims? Why do you count your own perceptions at all in the case of Jenner or any other TW? According QT and trans dogma, not to believe the claims made about themselves by anyone who calls themselves trans is transphobic.

Moreover, to continue to have and to place trust in your own perceptions of TW when those perceptions cause you to regard some TW in ways that aren't exactly in synch with how they see themselves and they have said they want to be seen by others is not just deeply transphobic - it's arrogant and oppressive.

Your assessments that certain TW pass and others don't are transphobic and oppressive also because you are judging TW based on whether their outward appearance as you perceive it lives up to superficial aesthetic standards that you hold, but which the TW you are being judgmental toward might not hew to. In fact, the TW whom you declare "doesn't pass" might not just disagree with and reject the aesthetic standards you are judging them by - they might experience those standards as harmful and negating of their identities. A true ally would not be so judgy. A true ally would pay no attention whatsoever to how any/all TW appear in any circumstance. A true ally would never, ever have the nerve to believe her own eyes if those eyes spot even a glimmer of evidence that flies in the face of the dogma that all trans people are exactly who/what they claim to be and all TW are women.

In case it's not crystal clear: I am not saying that in my opinion some of the views you have expressed on this thread are transphobic. I'm just pointing out that according to QT and gender dogma they are.

a passing trans woman will of course not be questioned in the woman's restroom

How on earth do you know this?

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have multiple reddit accounts and on one of them I used to regularly post on r/gendercynical a few years back and no one ever accused me of transphobia. I have never once been accused of transphobia in my life.

Sorry, but I find this very hard to believe. I mean, it's the internet: people argue for dumb stuff like the color of a dress, misunderstandings happens (and what someone intended to be an obvious sarcasm, others take it seriously), and sometimes people make stuff up for whatever reason, including just for trolling. But you are tellling me you are active in online groups surrounded by vindictive people who are quick to take offense at reality and who are changing the rules all the time, and yet you've never been told you said something "transphobic? And we know you hold some opinions that some QT would find deeply transphobic like the fact you would only date post-op "transmen", and yet you've never been told you hold some "problematic beliefs", really?