QT: What is a rooster?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

"medical transition" were legalized here.

Wait isn't this last bit at least a good thing? For trans Argentinians

I've many problems with that law. Let's start saying that there were no laws regarding "trans" issues before 2012. The only antecedents were a handful of legal cases ruling in favour of trans activists since the late 90's onwards regarding modifying legal documents and getting cosmetic surgeries to look more like the opposite sex. So, we went from 0 to 100 in a single law and there were really not debate about any of this. Newsmedia, regardless of political leanings, spreaded TRA's talking points about the law. MSM not only started deliberately misleading the public by using the "inclusive language" proposed by TRA. They sold the public the lie that this law represented a minor change that will greatly benefict a marginalized demography. There were no questions asked about whether there were a conflict of interest between women and males who claim to be "women", or whether "medically transition" actually works, or whether children should access any of this stuff (note: even pre-schoold kids have been able to to get their sex markers on their legal documents with the approval of their parents), or whether everyone should be forced to play along someone's cross-sex "identity", or whether "identity" should trump over material reality.

The main opposition came from the Catholic Church, which even to this day have little idea of what they are talking about as they lump together feminism, gay rights and trans activism under the name of ideología de género (literally gender ideology). They either can't see or don't want to see any conflict of interest between those groups. Also, religious zealots don't really care much about women, either.

Another problem I have is that I view transgenderism as the newest form of imperialism from the developed world. There are western rich people who are lobbying for this stuff in their home countries and beyond (1, 2, 3). I could talk about how much of this stuff doesn't make sense in languages other than English. For instance, the 2012 law talks about identidad de género (gender identity), but the actual word used in the official documents where the self-ID takes places is sexo (sex).

Now regarding the medical stuff, the law allows giving hormones on demand for minors as long as they have parental approval (or a judge order), and it allow surgeris for minors if they have both parental approval and a judge order. I suppose you'd view this a good thing, but I'm against the "transitioning" minors. And as I see it the risk of suicide is overstated (4).

As for the adult "transition", well, I think medice should be based on science and I believe in that "first, do no harm" stuff. And on one hand, I've yet to see evidence that any of this actually improves mental health(5, 6). On the other hand, there is evidence of all the health risk associated with it (7). And this is something that should be considered because the law not only say that all this stuff must be provided on-demand, but also it must be covered by both private and public health system. And whether the State should pay for this is not a minor detail. We live from economic crisis to economic crisis, wages are always running behind prices, our currency had lost a lot of zeros through history, and there is much corruption and former president Mauricio Macri got the country into an unpayable debt with the IMF (which also means the goverment has to follow their economic receipts that only favour the rich). Our public health system was overwhelmed even prior to the COVID pandemic, too. Yeah, I know some posters here will see me as an extremist, but I cannot get behind trans identified people getting this stuff paid by the State.

Also, apparently even body hair removal by electroysis is considered "trans health care". I mean, seriously? Why can't they just shave? After all, shouldn't shaving be "gender affirming"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

regarding modifying legal documents and getting cosmetic surgeries to look more like the opposite sex.

Yeah that just seems like the basics?

or whether "medically transition" actually works

It generally does! But even if it didn't it should still be people's choice on what they do to their bodies x(

Also, religious zealots don't really care much about women, either.

Yeah I'm not a fan of the Catholic church either :/ too few groups seem to care about women's rights that aren't made up of women themselves

Another problem I have is that I view transgenderism as the newest form of imperialism from the developed world.

What? Like what's your basis for that, there have been trans or trans-identifying people across history it's not just a western phenomenon. I get there might be issues with translating the language though.

It's weird, because what you see as imperialism just seems like a human rights issue to me @_@ like trans people should be accepted in every nation and able to transition and change our documents, I support the Yogyakarta principles in general

Tbh I'm questioning some of these links because I hardly think that "transgender trend" is unbiased on the issue of minors transitioning...like they have a vested interest in opposing it that might not necessarily be based in fact. In the morning I can try and find more transpositive sources from what I vaguely remember. Thank you for posting them though, it's just rather late for me. But it's always at least... interesting to see what "anti-trans" groups are saying

As for the adult "transition", well, I think medice should be based on science and I believe in that "first, do no harm" stuff.

There's no universal definition of harm. What's harmful for someone isn't trans might be fine for someone who is. And I think transition should be based on autonomy, with medical guidance for safety. For every study GCers pull that claims no benefit there's another that clearly shows one, so I don't know if we can ever come to a consensus there.

So I've stopped trying to argue on the basis of whether transition helps or not, mostly. It doesn't matter whether it does, I'm going to do it anyway, with or without medical support. So it's better to have that support otherwise life will just be even harder for trans people.

And whether the State should pay for this is not a minor detail.

Trans people aren't going to cost a huge amount though? Like we're a small group and some just take hormones and don't get surgery, and hormones are pretty affordable. Compared to other economic crises trans people are likely a drop in the bucket.

Yeah, I know some posters here will see me as an extremist, but I cannot get behind trans identified people getting this stuff paid by the State...

I didn't know about the corruption, thank you for illuminating btw! I admit that trans healthcare probably isn't the most pressing issue there :/

At the same time though, those who aren't trans are prescribed gender affirming hormones. Men who have lower than average T can take T, women who are entering menopause can take estradiol to make their lives a bit easier. It's the same for us, being on hormones improves my mood and functioning. If nothing else, before documents or language or recognition, trans people should have healthcare

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

women who are entering menopause can take estradiol to make their lives a bit easier.

This just goes to show how little you know about the experience of older women (female humans, I mean). Since the big study was published in 2002 showing that estrogen replacement for menopausal women leads to higher rates of diseases like cancer, it's actually been pretty difficult for most women in peri-menopause or full menopause to get prescriptions for estrogens. In the first 10-15 years after 2002, it was pretty much impossible for older women in and after menopause to get prescription estradiol from a qualified, competent gynecologist, endocrinologist or other specialist in women's health care.

Also, one of the consequences of the study results published in 2002 was that the particular HRT formulations devised expressly for young and middle-aged women who had the ovaries removed or experienced ovarian failure prior to age 50 were taken off the market and went out of production. One good example is Estratest, a pill form of HRT that in the US used to be commonly prescribed to younger & MA women who had oophorectomy or disease that caused premature ovarian failure before reaching the age of natural menopause. Estratest tried to match and replace the natural hormones produced by the ovaries of younger and MA women by adding a small dose of testosterone to the estradiol that it mostly consisted of. Estratest was a godsend to millions of the women who used to take it, and many suffered horribly when it and all similar formulations were suddenly denied us and then yanked from the market.

Even today, when doctors have finally begun to ease up and stop being so completely withholding of estradiol scrips for female people, women (female ones, that is) with menopausal symptoms are usually made to go through a number of hoops and forced to try every other remedy under the sun before HCPs finally relent and prescribe Big Pharma estradiol, particularly in higher-dose forms administered orally, by patch or by injection. Moreover, women in their 40s and 50s who can get these scrips for peri- and full menopause symptoms are usually only allowed to stay on HRT at very low doses for very short periods of time. Only males who claim to have female gender identities are given prescription estradiol at high doses on demand - and since 2002, only they/you are allowed to stay on high dose Big Pharma estradiol for life.

Older women long past menopause who could benefit from estrogen therapy in their 60s, 70s, 80s and beyond to counteract health issues that are common in senior citizen-age women like chronic UTIs, vaginal pain and itching due to atrophy and osteoporosis are routinely denied HRT. If older women manage to get a prescription, it's typically only for very low-dose creams - and again for a very short time. If you don't believe me, I suggest you visit some care homes for the elderly and ask the old women there about their own "lived experience."

If you paid any attention whatsoever to the experiences that female human beings go through, and have gone through over the past 100 years, you'd know that in recent decades it's actually become much, much easier for males to get estradiol prescriptions for reasons of "gender affirmation" and "transition" than it is for actual women "of a certain age" to get scrips for estradiol because of genuine physical issues related to menopause. These days, a 72-year-old male like Caitlyn Jenner will be given high dose oral or injection estradiol for "gender transition" and "gender affirmation" just by asking. But a 72-year-old female who seeks estradiol for physical problems that commonly occur due to lack of estrogen in elderly women long past menopause like painful urination, urethral inflammation and bleeding, frequent UTIs and urinary incontinence will be told that those are just ordinary problems of female aging that she'll just have to learn to live with.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

regarding modifying legal documents and getting cosmetic surgeries to look more like the opposite sex.

Yeah that just seems like the basics?

I don't understand your point. I'm saying all this stuff was presented to the public as a settled issue in spite of not only being a radical change, but also it was something unheard of for most Argentinians.

What? Like what's your basis for that, there have been trans or trans-identifying people across history it's not just a western phenomenon. I get there might be issues with translating the language though.

All the historical examples I'seen have either been: (a) women who are being "transed" posthumously for defying sex-based roles or stereotypes, or for having disguised as men or used male pennames to go against the constraints of their times; (b) examples of so-called "third genders", where in certain cultures men (and, more rarely, women) are put into a special cast outside the social roles assigned to men and women. The problem with using "third genders" as examples is that they were/are still recognized by their sex in their own cultures. Refering to certain males as women is a new fenomenom who began in Western countries at the 20th century due to, I think, the development of new medical technologies (i.e. exogenous hormones and "SRS") which would allow them to appear more like the oppossite sex.

Here is an Indian woman talking the actual reality of Indian hijras. She also has lot to say in other articles of her website about how the Western "trans" movement is being imported in India at a very quick pace in contrast to women's rights there.

It's weird, because what you see as imperialism just seems like a human rights issue to me @_@ like trans people should be accepted in every nation and able to transition and change our documents, I support the Yogyakarta principles in general

I imagined you supported the Yogyakarta principles. My point to mentioning them was there are rich people who are lobbying for this stuff around the world. The quick pace at which laws and policies are being changed, often without public knowledge, the way this is being supported by a good bunch of MSM and big companies-including Big Tech companies like Google-, the way dissenter's voices (particularly female dissenters) are being suppresed... Nothing of this looks like a grass-roots movement. For instance, you can read here about how a law firm advised British trans activist to hide their goals, and you can read here how the ACLU blocked a women's request about the number of trans identified males being held in the female estate in Washington.