QT: What is a rooster?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

Since asking what is a woman is such a difficult question, let's try another aproach!

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[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Chickens can sometimes undergo natural sex changes. Normally, female chickens have just one functional ovary, on their left side. Although two sex organs are present during the embryonic stages of all birds, once a chicken's female hormones come into effect, it typically develops only the left ovary. The right gonad, which has yet to be defined as an ovary, testes, or both (called an ovotestis), typically remains dormant. Certain medical conditions can cause a chicken's left ovary to regress. In the absence of a functional left ovary, the dormant right sex organ may begin to grow; if the activated right gonad is an ovotestis or testes, it will begin secreting androgens. The hen does not completely change into a rooster, however. This transition is limited to making the bird phenotypically male.[5][6] The condition could also be caused by mycotoxins that can develop when animal feed is stored, and these have the same effect as synthetic hormones.[7] In about 10 percent of cases, if eggs fertilized with male chromosomes are cooled by a few degrees for three days after laying, the relative activity of the sex hormones will favour development of female characteristics. The sex chromosomes work by coding for enzymes that affect the bird's development in the egg and during its life. This cooling will produce a chicken with a fully functioning and reproductively fertile female body-type, even though the chicken is genetically male.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_change#Natural_sex_change

[–]LemurLemur 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I know this must feel like an exciting "gotcha" because GC all tell each other that trans people "literally don't understand what sex is", but I feel like this is more just a matter of agreeing or disagreeing with how things are categorized when they're referred to.

Humans use the word "rooster" to describe a chicken they identify as male. If there was a mutant female chicken that developed plumage and secondary sex traits that made it appear like a rooster, without an invasive inspection, people would probably identify it as a "rooster" and if someone said "look at that rooster", no one is going to say WHAT ROOSTER I DON'T SEE ANY ROOSTER. Essentially, I'm describing the "looks like a duck" phenomenon.

And I know, I know "but LEMUR, those people are WRONG tho even if it LOOKS like a rooster!" Sure. But if I wanted a picture of a rooster, and was given a picture of the mutant-chicken, that picture would serve all the purposes a picture of a (lol) "natal" rooster, because I don't plan on breeding the rooster, or eating its eggs, so functionally speaking, there's no difference.

This is sort of the issue I think a lot of people face around the trans issue. For people who are supportive of trans issues, it's not that everyone literally thinks "they're the textbook example of the sex they want to be, down to the chromosomal level". I think it's more that people don't care about what people have between their legs - they aren't doing the thing I see GC talk about on Ovarit where they scour the faces of people on the bus "looking for an adam's apple" or whatever weird "one cool trick to clock the transes" that's in vogue at the time. If they are sitting next to a natal woman, or a trans woman, it doesn't really change the bus ride or harm anyone to say "he sat next to some woman".

I have a friend whos a transman. He's said it better "I know I wasn't born a man. I'm genetically female. But because I pass, people see me as a man, so I am treated as a man. In that way, I socially occupy the role of "man" for the people I interact with. At this point, I just don't correct people." I'm paraphrasing, but it was kind of interesting. He wasn't the type to insist on pronouns or anything - he always maintained gender was a joke, and no one should take it seriously. When he was earlier in transition, he said people both confidently call him "he", and some people confidently call him "she", and then literally debate with each other over it. He never would tell them which was accurate because he thought it was funny how important people thought it was to KNOW what he had in his pants.

So... I think I'm fine with the distinction between "gender" and "sex", for medical reasons. Gender is a social construct, because it affects how we are referred to socially. Sex is your biological plumbing.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

people don't care about what people have between their legs

Just want to point out that like a lot of QT terminology, this particular phrasing - which is routinely used by genderists in discourse about sex and gender identity - reflects a distinctly male POV and framing. Because only the male gonads are between the legs. Women and girls don't generally describe our primary physical sex characteristics in ways that indicate we conceptualize and experience being female as something that's solely or principally about what's between our legs. Men and boys think that way - women and girls, not so much.

[–]LemurLemur 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

lol I'm a natal woman. Sorry for not living up to your stereotype. (Edit: I am legit not sure how what you just said isn’t like… classic sexism.)

I dunno, tho, I see a lot of GC sentiments centered around whether or not transwomen have penises and how that is the primary indicator of how their gender should be defined. They also talk a lot about how their vaginas are what make them women. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, as that is how sex is defined - by the sex-based organs. But that is what people ultimately want to know if they really want to know someone's sex. They want to know what their sex organs are.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Huh? I specifically said that

this particular phrasing - which is routinely used by genderists in discourse about sex and gender identity - reflects a distinctly male POV and framing.

I made no assumptions or statements whatsoever about your own sex as an individual. None at all.

Lots of the language and framing members of both sexes use about sex and gender issues, and many other issues, reflect a distinctly male POV and framing. Because for all of recorded history, it's been a man's world and most of the important texts written over history that influence us all were written to reflect a distinctly male POV and framing.

My comment was not a personal diss of you. It wasn't about you personally at all. It was about the terminology and framing. Sorry you took it as a comment about you.

FWIW, most everyone uses lingo that reflects a male POV and framing to some extent. Because we all grew up learning and citing famous phrasing like "no man is an island," "all men are created equal," "man's inhumanity to man," "hey man" and "man alive!" Medicine, law, philosophy, literature, art, criticism, history... all the major works in all fields reflect a male POV. Two books on the table next to me as I write this are Frankl's "Man's Search For Meaning" and Ellison's "Invisible Man."

I see a lot of GC sentiments centered around whether or not transwomen have penises and how that is the primary indicator of how their gender should be defined. They also talk a lot about how their vaginas are what make them women. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, as that is how sex is defined - by the sex-based organs.

Yes, the reproductive organs are a major component of what defines and differentiates sex, but in weighing the importance of the reproductive organs in human sex determination and definition, the gonads always will be in first place because gonads play more central and fundamental roles than either the penis or the vagina. The gonads are where the gametes are made and stored, and the gonads are also the organs that produce most of the sex hormones that cause a fetus to develop as distinctly male or female.

Moreover, during gestation in utero, the gonads develop and differentiate into ovaries or testes first - and it's only after the gonads have differentiated into either testes or ovaries (at about 7-8 weeks) and then start producing the gonadal sex hormones specific to testes or ovaries that rest of the reproductive organs develop.

In a male, after the testes develop, the testes will then produce both anti-Müllerian hormone (AMH) and testosterone. These will cause the fetus with testes to develop other male repro organs.

In a female fetus with ovaries, the lack of testes, testosterone and lack of AMH will result in the fetus developing female repro organs.

About eight weeks after conception the human foetus has two sets of ducts, one of which can develop into the male reproductive tract and the other into the female reproductive tract. If the foetus is genetically male (XY chromosomes) then the embryonic testes will produce anti-Müllerian hormone. This causes the Müllerian (female) ducts to disappear – hence the term anti-Müllerian hormone, whilst testosterone produced by the testes causes the male (Wollfian) ducts to survive.

The Wollfian ducts go on to develop into the different parts of the male reproductive system: the epididymis, the vas deferens, the seminal vesicles and the prostate gland.

In a female fetus (XX chromosomes) the Wollfian ducts disappear (because of the lack of testosterone) and the Müllerian ducts develop into the fallopian tubes, uterus (womb), cervix and the upper part of the vagina.

Anti-Müllerian hormone may also have a role in regulating sex steroid production in puberty and in the adult ovaries and testes. In the ovaries, anti-Müllerian hormone appears to be important in the early stages of development of the follicles, which contain and support the eggs prior to fertilisation. The more ovarian follicles a woman has, the more anti-Müllerian hormone her ovaries can produce, and so AMH can be measured in the bloodstream to assess how many follicles a woman has left in her ovaries: her ‘ovarian reserve’.

https://www.yourhormones.info/hormones/anti-mullerian-hormone/

BTW, the talk of penises and vaginas that you have you have correctly observed many with "GC sentiments" commonly engage in also reflects a distinctly male POV and framing. It's a framing that mistakenly regards the penis as the primary male sex organ, when in reality the male testes play a much more important role. And it's a framing that reflects the primacy of PIV intercourse in much literature and thinking about human sex over the course of history too.

Apologies for not choosing my words more carefully so as not to cause you personal offense.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you runned a farm, I bet you'll care more about your mutant chicken's actual sex rather than its outward appearance. And just you know, there are people whose job is correctly sexing chicks (i.e. when the sexual dimorphism is not that evident at first glance).

Based on previous discussions here and from what I heard from QT elsewhere, it's evident to me that, yes, many people on the QT side have a poor understanding of the human body in general and sex in particular. I've heard it all: how sex is a spectrum (or even a matrix...) becuase intersex or clown fish, or how sex is a social construct because of so called "third genders" in other cultures, or how "pausing" puberty is reversible, how trans identified people must be treated as the oposite sex in a medical setting, how men don't have an athletic advantage over women, how males who reduce their testosterone levels don't have an athletic advantage over women, how males who take estrogene can breastfeed babies, how not even ginecologysts can tell "neovaginas" and vaginas appart, how sex is completely irrelevant even in health care, how males who identify as trans have periods just like women, how males who identify as "women" will get uterus transplants and get pregnant some day, how the vagina is a front hole, how messing with your endocrinological system won't have major side effects, how a "neopenis" is like a penis, how "trans" is real becuase of "brain sex", among another jewels.

But whatever any particular individual who believes in "trans identities" understands about sex, it's clear by looking at the policies and laws they lobbby for that the goal of trans activists is the legal erasure of sex and its replacement for "gender identity". In other words, women won't have words to describle ourselves, neither we will have the ability to name the source of our oppression (i.e. sex), and neither we'll have reliable data to show the extent of sexism and misogyny; and, by identifying as trans, any male will be able to have access to any formerly women's space from public bathrooms to prisons.

The problem is people's sex is very relevant in many areas of life like health care, safeguarding, sports or dating, for instance. And "transition" doesn't undone the relevance of sex. For some easy examples, "transition" doesn't undone the athletic advantage that males have over women neither undones male patterns of criminality.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

Chickens don't obviously have a concept of gender (I might stand corrected idk), and they have much greater sexual dimorphism than humans, so a rooster is a male chicken.

(If it turns out chickens do have a concept of gender or transness, then I would say that a rooster is any chicken seen by other chickens to be male regardless of actual, factual, maleness)

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

So, you know what a rooster is. Good. Now, why there cannot be a word that means adult human female? Why do women must be defined based in sexist stereotypes?

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

They aren't, unless you consider being perceived to be female as a sexist stereotype regardless of clothes or style. Also there's plenty of words or phrases: cis woman, womyn-born-womyn, even adult human female will probably get your meaning across: someone who is a woman and did not undergo any sort of gender transition to become such

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

They aren't, unless you consider being perceived to be female as a sexist stereotype regardless of clothes or style.

What does being perceived to be female even means?

Just listening to trans identified people talking about their "authentic selves" makes clear that they often hold very sexist ideas about what a woman or man are. Like there is even a British lobby group who uses (or at least used) an escale between Barbie and G.I Joe to explain "gender identity" to children. There is a trans identified male, Andrea Long Chu (or something like that), who wrote about his experience and states that being female is "an expectan asshole, dead eyes" (you really cannot get more misogynist than that). Oh, and there is also the trans flag (pink and blue? I mean, seriously?). And there are plenty of other examples like that.

Also there's plenty of words or phrases: cis woman, womyn-born-womyn, even adult human female will probably get your meaning across: someone who is a woman and did not undergo any sort of gender transition to become such

Oh, I like how you expect everyone calls you as you see yourself, but women have to acept the words that you deem appropriate for us.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

What does being perceived to be female even means?

It just means that when other people think of you, do they think you're a man or a woman? Dependent on sex characteristics, presentation, information you've told them, etc.

Just listening to trans identified people talking about their "authentic selves" makes clear that they often hold very sexist ideas about what a woman or man are

Honestly not more than cis people hold sexist ideas of what men or women must be. And yeah that's problematic but I don't see you disputing that sexist men and women are still men or women?

It's like, I do not think that women should have to perform femininity, I know and love women who are unapologetically themselves, who do not conform with every expectation and that's great. Feminity doesn't equal womanhood.

But for me, because I want to be far apart from anything masculine, I feel like I must conform to some feminine expectations just to be seen "the right way". That's part of why I've trained my voice and don't go topless, because it would be socially unacceptable for me to sound like a man or to have my breasts shown. It shouldn't be unacceptable, but it is right now.

I don't agree with what Andrea said though.

Oh, I like how you expect everyone calls you as you see yourself, but women have to acept the words that you deem appropriate for us.

You can use whichever words you want for yourselves! Just don't be surprised if people are confused or need clarification? Like, I'm not stopping you from using the word women? Just, I'm going to use it too because it describes me best..

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

It just means that when other people think of you, do they think you're a man or a woman? Dependent on sex characteristics, presentation, information you've told them, etc.

Like I told you, I've been mistaken for a man on the internet; and, because of my somewhat deep voice, a few times I've been mistaken for a boy on the phone and interphone. Does that makes me less of a woman?

Honestly not more than cis people hold sexist ideas of what men or women must be. And yeah that's problematic but I don't see you disputing that sexist men and women are still men or women?

It's like, I do not think that women should have to perform femininity, I know and love women who are unapologetically themselves, who do not conform with every expectation and that's great. Feminity doesn't equal womanhood.

Sexist men are still men and sexist women are still women, of course. It's their ideas about how women and men should be what I take offense at. And in the case of trans identified people those ideas are likely influencing how they perceive themselves. For example, imagine the case of a 12 year-old girl who is perceived as "masculine" for their interest and behaviour: let's say for instance, she has short hair, prefer practical clothes, doesn't wear male-up, likes outdoor acvities and loves action movies among other things. She has been struggling with the body changes brought by puberty like breast growth and periods alongside with the unwanted male attention. She feels like she doesn't fit in and, to complicate matters, she is becoming aware that she is only attracted to girls, not boys. And because she holds some sexist ideas about women and men, some day she concludes her life would be far more easier if she were a typical heterosexual boy. She thinks if she were a boy she would suddenly fit in with her peers and she wouldn't have to deal with periods, unwanted male attention or homophobia. And nowadays, in order to try to "live as man", she could be prescribed GnRH agonists to "pause" puberty and, later, testosterone, and being refered for a bilateral mastectomy. All this with the blessing of the MSM, the medical and political establishments, her teachers and, maybe, even her family; none of whom would question her motivations for "transition" nor would try to help her get more comfortable in her own skin.

But for me, because I want to be far apart from anything masculine, I feel like I must conform to some feminine expectations just to be seen "the right way". That's part of why I've trained my voice and don't go topless, because it would be socially unacceptable for me to sound like a man or to have my breasts shown. It shouldn't be unacceptable, but it is right now.

But why do feel like you need to do this? Why cannot you do whatever you want without rejecting your own body and changing how everyone sees you?

You can use whichever words you want for yourselves! Just don't be surprised if people are confused or need clarification? Like, I'm not stopping you from using the word women? Just, I'm going to use it too because it describes me best..

Didn't you say yesterday that nobody owns words...? Jokes aside, words are important for communication and that is why one cannot change arbitraly the meanings of words and expect to be undertood by everyone else. However, I am NOT the one who is proposing a radical change in language; it's QT who are doing this. Until very recently in human history, saying that women are adult human females would have been an uncontroversial statement. In fact, I can even point out when the shift in language happened in my country, Argentina: it was around 11-12 years ago when newsmedia outlets started refering to trans identified males as "women" with the help of trans activists who "educated" them, and it was in 2012 when self-ID and "medical transition" were legalized here.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Does that makes me less of a woman?

No? You said it only happens occasionally. Idk online I'm out as trans but irl ppl "mistake" me for female basically 100% of the time. And lol even that doesn't make me much happier to look in the mirror or hear myself on recording; I kinda pass to most people but myself x(

And because she holds some sexist ideas about women and men, some day she concludes her life would be far more easier if she were a typical heterosexual boy. She thinks if she were a boy she would suddenly fit in with her peers and she wouldn't have to deal with periods, unwanted male attention or homophobia

If people who would otherwise have been GNC in a world without transition, decide to transition instead of being GNC, then isn't that kind of their decision to make? More GNC people and fewer trans people isn't necessarily a positive (or negative) thing, unless you consider transness to be a negative state. I think that, if this hypothetical kid could end up living a happy life transitioning or not, then whether they do is totally up to them and we shouldn't try to protect them from their own choices.

Idk, I was gnc growing up. I danced, I didn't like playing with military toys, I was invited and went to girls' sleepovers, I guess because I must have given off an intense gay aura or something. (I'm not saying this is proof of anything but just that I grew up feeling different) But the idea of growing up to be, well, a man, is so distasteful and wrong to me. It doesn't feel like it's what I'm supposed to do. Transition has given me the chance to, if not totally change my sex, then at least approximate it and have people think that.

Why cannot you do whatever you want without rejecting your own body and changing how everyone sees you?

I guess I'm just not interested in how androgyny works for amab people who aren't on hormones? The idea of being masculine makes me feel gross, and if I did nothing, my body would just keep betraying me and making me more so. I (usually) tolerate living in it now but I don't like it. I have to inject weekly to keep it going in that state.

And on some level, that's kind of empowering? To feel that I have some control over things, over something I didn't have control over for a long time. I've even thought of getting like a cool tattoo or something near where I have to inject. Idk if that's cringy, but yeah.

Didn't you say yesterday that nobody owns words...?

Yeah!

that is why one cannot change arbitraly the meanings of words and expect to be undertood by everyone else.

You literally can tho, u cn tlk lk ths nd ppl cn stl ndrstnd u, language is whatever you make of it! The meanings of words are always contextual and change over time. Isn't that what GC is trying to do by insisting that woman still must mean adult human female, change how the word is understood from how transpositive people see it?

I don't really have a problem with people trying to change language, just with certain words being forced on me? Like I try not to say cis for people who have requested I not, and I don't have any cognitive dissonance in saying "women and trans women", if that is less problematic to you?

I don't personally like "trans-identified-sex" bc I think it erases any meaning transition might have had? And makes it all about just identity and not lived experience. But whatever.

"medical transition" were legalized here.

Wait isn't this last bit at least a good thing? For trans Argentinians

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No? You said it only happens occasionally.

All the people in my life could conspire to play me a big joke and refere to me as a man from now and even so I'll still know that I am a woman. The physical reality of my body will stay the same regardless of how everyone else call me.

If people who would otherwise have been GNC in a world without transition, decide to transition instead of being GNC, then isn't that kind of their decision to make? More GNC people and fewer trans people isn't necessarily a positive (or negative) thing, unless you consider transness to be a negative state. I think that, if this hypothetical kid could end up living a happy life transitioning or not, then whether they do is totally up to them and we shouldn't try to protect them from their own choices.

This hypothetical girl is too young to take such drastic and irreversible decisions. In most places, the law doesn't allow 12 year-olds to vote, drive a car, drink alcoholic beverages, smoke, consent to sexual relationships, get married, live alone, etcetera. No doctor would refer her for tubal ligation because of her young age, yet according to QT she is mature enough to get chemically castrated and get her breasts amputated. It's doubtfull that "transition" will be the panacea she thinks it is and whether she persist or desist from her "new identity" she will become a patient for life (keep in mind that "medical transition" is harsher in the female body as MarkTwainiac has detailed to you in other threads). Her personal relationships may deteriorate because she now will try to control how everyone else sees her and how they speak about her even when she is not present. And, very likely, she won't be able to opt out of sexism and misogyny: trans identified people are stil treated as their actual sex. That is why "transwomen" lead the movement and we mainly heard from "transmen" when they get pregnant...

I was invited and went to girls' sleepovers, I guess because I must have given off an intense gay aura or something.

And the girls' parents were okay with this even thought they knew you weren't a girl?

You literally can tho, u cn tlk lk ths nd ppl cn stl ndrstnd u, language is whatever you make of it! The meanings of words are always contextual and change over time.

And can you understand the following? Ne'a't hojna mjid¨pasd tish w?pt to¡!851 sjoo.añkm ablean airmb na wqimn.

Wait isn't this last bit at least a good thing? For trans Argentinians

I'll answer this in another comment because this may get a bit long...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

All the people in my life could conspire to play me a big joke and refere to me as a man from now and even so I'll still know that I am a woman. The physical reality of my body will stay the same regardless of how everyone else call me.

This is exactly how I feel though...like I'm having some cosmic joke played on me, calling me something I know I'm not. My identity is the same regardless of physical reality.

trans identified people are stil treated as their actual sex.

Like everything else it's contextual. Ik I'm not leading anything, and passing trans men can escape some forms of misogyny. There's still a lot in the medical industry, and maybe problems dating, but we're not treated the same as others of our sex in every or even most situations.

This hypothetical girl is too young to take such drastic and irreversible decisions

They should still get some say in their medical care. I'd be open to having the minimum for hormones be 14 or 16, because I agree we have to balance how much we can be sure versus not torturing those who are sure. If someone regrets then we can support them after, requiring medication for life doesn't make you a bad person or anything.

And the girls' parents were okay with this even thought they knew you weren't a girl?

This was before I started transitioning so yeah it was boy derrple. I'm surprised by that too in hindsight, but it was never weird and they were my friends, I was just happy to be included. I'm glad I was trustworthy enough that they let me go.

Ne'a't hojna mjid¨pasd tish w?pt to¡!851 sjoo.añkm ablean airmb na wqimn.

I'd love to learn your conlang if that's what it is!

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

"medical transition" were legalized here.

Wait isn't this last bit at least a good thing? For trans Argentinians

I've many problems with that law. Let's start saying that there were no laws regarding "trans" issues before 2012. The only antecedents were a handful of legal cases ruling in favour of trans activists since the late 90's onwards regarding modifying legal documents and getting cosmetic surgeries to look more like the opposite sex. So, we went from 0 to 100 in a single law and there were really not debate about any of this. Newsmedia, regardless of political leanings, spreaded TRA's talking points about the law. MSM not only started deliberately misleading the public by using the "inclusive language" proposed by TRA. They sold the public the lie that this law represented a minor change that will greatly benefict a marginalized demography. There were no questions asked about whether there were a conflict of interest between women and males who claim to be "women", or whether "medically transition" actually works, or whether children should access any of this stuff (note: even pre-schoold kids have been able to to get their sex markers on their legal documents with the approval of their parents), or whether everyone should be forced to play along someone's cross-sex "identity", or whether "identity" should trump over material reality.

The main opposition came from the Catholic Church, which even to this day have little idea of what they are talking about as they lump together feminism, gay rights and trans activism under the name of ideología de género (literally gender ideology). They either can't see or don't want to see any conflict of interest between those groups. Also, religious zealots don't really care much about women, either.

Another problem I have is that I view transgenderism as the newest form of imperialism from the developed world. There are western rich people who are lobbying for this stuff in their home countries and beyond (1, 2, 3). I could talk about how much of this stuff doesn't make sense in languages other than English. For instance, the 2012 law talks about identidad de género (gender identity), but the actual word used in the official documents where the self-ID takes places is sexo (sex).

Now regarding the medical stuff, the law allows giving hormones on demand for minors as long as they have parental approval (or a judge order), and it allow surgeris for minors if they have both parental approval and a judge order. I suppose you'd view this a good thing, but I'm against the "transitioning" minors. And as I see it the risk of suicide is overstated (4).

As for the adult "transition", well, I think medice should be based on science and I believe in that "first, do no harm" stuff. And on one hand, I've yet to see evidence that any of this actually improves mental health(5, 6). On the other hand, there is evidence of all the health risk associated with it (7). And this is something that should be considered because the law not only say that all this stuff must be provided on-demand, but also it must be covered by both private and public health system. And whether the State should pay for this is not a minor detail. We live from economic crisis to economic crisis, wages are always running behind prices, our currency had lost a lot of zeros through history, and there is much corruption and former president Mauricio Macri got the country into an unpayable debt with the IMF (which also means the goverment has to follow their economic receipts that only favour the rich). Our public health system was overwhelmed even prior to the COVID pandemic, too. Yeah, I know some posters here will see me as an extremist, but I cannot get behind trans identified people getting this stuff paid by the State.

Also, apparently even body hair removal by electroysis is considered "trans health care". I mean, seriously? Why can't they just shave? After all, shouldn't shaving be "gender affirming"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

regarding modifying legal documents and getting cosmetic surgeries to look more like the opposite sex.

Yeah that just seems like the basics?

or whether "medically transition" actually works

It generally does! But even if it didn't it should still be people's choice on what they do to their bodies x(

Also, religious zealots don't really care much about women, either.

Yeah I'm not a fan of the Catholic church either :/ too few groups seem to care about women's rights that aren't made up of women themselves

Another problem I have is that I view transgenderism as the newest form of imperialism from the developed world.

What? Like what's your basis for that, there have been trans or trans-identifying people across history it's not just a western phenomenon. I get there might be issues with translating the language though.

It's weird, because what you see as imperialism just seems like a human rights issue to me @_@ like trans people should be accepted in every nation and able to transition and change our documents, I support the Yogyakarta principles in general

Tbh I'm questioning some of these links because I hardly think that "transgender trend" is unbiased on the issue of minors transitioning...like they have a vested interest in opposing it that might not necessarily be based in fact. In the morning I can try and find more transpositive sources from what I vaguely remember. Thank you for posting them though, it's just rather late for me. But it's always at least... interesting to see what "anti-trans" groups are saying

As for the adult "transition", well, I think medice should be based on science and I believe in that "first, do no harm" stuff.

There's no universal definition of harm. What's harmful for someone isn't trans might be fine for someone who is. And I think transition should be based on autonomy, with medical guidance for safety. For every study GCers pull that claims no benefit there's another that clearly shows one, so I don't know if we can ever come to a consensus there.

So I've stopped trying to argue on the basis of whether transition helps or not, mostly. It doesn't matter whether it does, I'm going to do it anyway, with or without medical support. So it's better to have that support otherwise life will just be even harder for trans people.

And whether the State should pay for this is not a minor detail.

Trans people aren't going to cost a huge amount though? Like we're a small group and some just take hormones and don't get surgery, and hormones are pretty affordable. Compared to other economic crises trans people are likely a drop in the bucket.

Yeah, I know some posters here will see me as an extremist, but I cannot get behind trans identified people getting this stuff paid by the State...

I didn't know about the corruption, thank you for illuminating btw! I admit that trans healthcare probably isn't the most pressing issue there :/

At the same time though, those who aren't trans are prescribed gender affirming hormones. Men who have lower than average T can take T, women who are entering menopause can take estradiol to make their lives a bit easier. It's the same for us, being on hormones improves my mood and functioning. If nothing else, before documents or language or recognition, trans people should have healthcare

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

women who are entering menopause can take estradiol to make their lives a bit easier.

This just goes to show how little you know about the experience of older women (female humans, I mean). Since the big study was published in 2002 showing that estrogen replacement for menopausal women leads to higher rates of diseases like cancer, it's actually been pretty difficult for most women in peri-menopause or full menopause to get prescriptions for estrogens. In the first 10-15 years after 2002, it was pretty much impossible for older women in and after menopause to get prescription estradiol from a qualified, competent gynecologist, endocrinologist or other specialist in women's health care.

Also, one of the consequences of the study results published in 2002 was that the particular HRT formulations devised expressly for young and middle-aged women who had the ovaries removed or experienced ovarian failure prior to age 50 were taken off the market and went out of production. One good example is Estratest, a pill form of HRT that in the US used to be commonly prescribed to younger & MA women who had oophorectomy or disease that caused premature ovarian failure before reaching the age of natural menopause. Estratest tried to match and replace the natural hormones produced by the ovaries of younger and MA women by adding a small dose of testosterone to the estradiol that it mostly consisted of. Estratest was a godsend to millions of the women who used to take it, and many suffered horribly when it and all similar formulations were suddenly denied us and then yanked from the market.

Even today, when doctors have finally begun to ease up and stop being so completely withholding of estradiol scrips for female people, women (female ones, that is) with menopausal symptoms are usually made to go through a number of hoops and forced to try every other remedy under the sun before HCPs finally relent and prescribe Big Pharma estradiol, particularly in higher-dose forms administered orally, by patch or by injection. Moreover, women in their 40s and 50s who can get these scrips for peri- and full menopause symptoms are usually only allowed to stay on HRT at very low doses for very short periods of time. Only males who claim to have female gender identities are given prescription estradiol at high doses on demand - and since 2002, only they/you are allowed to stay on high dose Big Pharma estradiol for life.

Older women long past menopause who could benefit from estrogen therapy in their 60s, 70s, 80s and beyond to counteract health issues that are common in senior citizen-age women like chronic UTIs, vaginal pain and itching due to atrophy and osteoporosis are routinely denied HRT. If older women manage to get a prescription, it's typically only for very low-dose creams - and again for a very short time. If you don't believe me, I suggest you visit some care homes for the elderly and ask the old women there about their own "lived experience."

If you paid any attention whatsoever to the experiences that female human beings go through, and have gone through over the past 100 years, you'd know that in recent decades it's actually become much, much easier for males to get estradiol prescriptions for reasons of "gender affirmation" and "transition" than it is for actual women "of a certain age" to get scrips for estradiol because of genuine physical issues related to menopause. These days, a 72-year-old male like Caitlyn Jenner will be given high dose oral or injection estradiol for "gender transition" and "gender affirmation" just by asking. But a 72-year-old female who seeks estradiol for physical problems that commonly occur due to lack of estrogen in elderly women long past menopause like painful urination, urethral inflammation and bleeding, frequent UTIs and urinary incontinence will be told that those are just ordinary problems of female aging that she'll just have to learn to live with.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

regarding modifying legal documents and getting cosmetic surgeries to look more like the opposite sex.

Yeah that just seems like the basics?

I don't understand your point. I'm saying all this stuff was presented to the public as a settled issue in spite of not only being a radical change, but also it was something unheard of for most Argentinians.

What? Like what's your basis for that, there have been trans or trans-identifying people across history it's not just a western phenomenon. I get there might be issues with translating the language though.

All the historical examples I'seen have either been: (a) women who are being "transed" posthumously for defying sex-based roles or stereotypes, or for having disguised as men or used male pennames to go against the constraints of their times; (b) examples of so-called "third genders", where in certain cultures men (and, more rarely, women) are put into a special cast outside the social roles assigned to men and women. The problem with using "third genders" as examples is that they were/are still recognized by their sex in their own cultures. Refering to certain males as women is a new fenomenom who began in Western countries at the 20th century due to, I think, the development of new medical technologies (i.e. exogenous hormones and "SRS") which would allow them to appear more like the oppossite sex.

Here is an Indian woman talking the actual reality of Indian hijras. She also has lot to say in other articles of her website about how the Western "trans" movement is being imported in India at a very quick pace in contrast to women's rights there.

It's weird, because what you see as imperialism just seems like a human rights issue to me @_@ like trans people should be accepted in every nation and able to transition and change our documents, I support the Yogyakarta principles in general

I imagined you supported the Yogyakarta principles. My point to mentioning them was there are rich people who are lobbying for this stuff around the world. The quick pace at which laws and policies are being changed, often without public knowledge, the way this is being supported by a good bunch of MSM and big companies-including Big Tech companies like Google-, the way dissenter's voices (particularly female dissenters) are being suppresed... Nothing of this looks like a grass-roots movement. For instance, you can read here about how a law firm advised British trans activist to hide their goals, and you can read here how the ACLU blocked a women's request about the number of trans identified males being held in the female estate in Washington.

[–]grassfed 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

So many long texts here lets use some of them as copy pastas!