Qt/tra, how does identity form?

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

It's not a matter of debate whether men who say they are "women" are, in fact, men. That is so because they have a male body and this is something that can be easily and objctively determined. Biology doesn't care about how said males feel about their sexed bodies or how much effort they put into concealling their sex.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's not a matter of debate whether men who say they are "women" are, in fact, men.

It literally is. We are talking about it and disagreeing right now.

That is so because they have a male body and this is something that can be easily and objctively determined.

Which I don’t believe is what defines manhood.

Biology doesn't care about how said males feel about their sexed bodies or how much effort they put into concealling their sex.

We aren’t talking about biology, we are talking about social interactions or at least taxonomy. No one is disagreeing about who has what chromosomes. We are arguing about what that means for definitions. It’s semantics.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Some people think the Earth is flat and there is a great conspiracy to hide this "fact". It doesn't make it true.

You don't want to talk biology, but it's absolutely relevant in the discussion. What your chromosomes you have do matter because there is plenty of biological differences between women and men that you have to keep in mind in certain contexts like health care and sports. They matter because only one sex is able to get pregant and only one sex is able to impregnate the former. They matter because sexual orientation is based on sex, not how you personally "identify as". They matter because we live in a sexist society and women are discriminated against because of our sex not how we "identify". They matter because men made up most of violent criminals. They matter because most victims of sexual violence are female and rapists are overwhelming males.

But you and others like you want we ignore all of this so not to hurt your feelings. Males who identify as trans, whether or nor they admit they are males, want to be treat as women, or a very special kind of women at least, even though your needs are very different from women. In practice, this means we have to ignore sex in all context where it matters, which will hurt women the most. It means we cannot accurately record sex anymore, which will alter how the data is interpreted. It means, women cannot organize politically to fight against sexism and misogyny. It means women are not allowed to assemble without the presence of males. It means women cannot name the source of sexim and misogyny. It means all the gains that women have achieved through decades and decades of fighting will be lost.

I don't care how people like you feel about your sexed body. The word woman is taken. If you don't want to be associated with people of your sex, you all can make up any word of your liking and start advocating for your particular needs in a way that doesn't undermine women's rights and without expecting women do the hard work for you.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

Some people think the Earth is flat and there is a great conspiracy to hide this "fact". It doesn't make it true.

But that’s a factual question not a language question.

As to the rest. Inclusion of trans women doesn’t undo women’s progress in any of those areas. And the needs of a passing trans woman and a natal woman are functionally identical outside of a medical context.

You want to throw us to the wolves and act like it simply isn’t your concern when we get eaten. You act like trans people have the political capital to magically rewrite all of society to just add a third category to everything and increase all separate spaces by 50 percent. It’s functionally impossible. At least stop acting like we could just change shit like that. Even if every trans person decided to abandon self respect and start begging for a third option it just wouldn’t happen. We have a binary society and that isn’t going to be changed by a bunch of freaks you yourself admit most people hate.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Do you really want that I repost all thoses links that show how women have been hurt because of policies that trans activists have advocated for?

Males who "pass" as women, supposing any exists in the first place, don't have the same needs as actual women. For instance, hey have been socialized differently for starter and they have more chances to fight back against violent men because they are physically stronger than women.

As for trans identified people don't have the political power to rewrite society as they would like... Let me tell you some things about my country, Argentina. In 2012, it was passed the gender identity law, which legalized self-ID. This was an overnight change as there was no a previous law that allowed to legally "change" your sex provided you meet certain (meaningless) requirements like in other countries. Although local transactivists have obtained some judicial victories since the '90s that paved the way for the law.

This law also egalized "medical transition", which should be provided for free and on demand. You have to keep in mind the called "sex change surgeries" where considered ilegal by Argentinian law. They were only allowed if a judicial order was obtained first, something that didn't started happening until the mid-'90s. So, this was also an overnight change.

This law allows minor to legally "change" their sex with the approval of their parents. Kids as young as five years old have been able to do this. This allow minor to access GnRH agonists and cross-sex hormones with the approval of their parents. Surgeries for minor are allowed with parental approval and a judicial order.

Transactivists say their lobby for this law started in 2007, i.e. around the the time the Yogyakarta Principles were signed. Indee one of the signers is Argentinian trans identified person who is one of the people behind this law. The law was approved in their first round through the Congress and gained support across through the political spectrum. It was approved in the Senate by unanimity, with only 1 abstention. The law was praised by local newsmedia across the political spectrum, too, while respecting the "indentity" of trans identified people. Because trans activists have previously trained journalists to do exactly that, you know?

Trans activists claimed the law would not affect nobody but trans identified people. And journalists repeated those lies while the law was being discussed. However, even though the law said nothing about sex-seggregated spaces, it has been used since then to undermine women-only's spaces. Because it turns out that if a man can legally "change" his sex, he has to be treated as a "women" by the law. Shocking, I know.

Now let's talk about abortion. This has always been a divisive issue, however, after many years of advocacy by feminists, one of the many law projects finally got to be discussed in the Congress. It was approved by the Chamber of Deputies, but it was rejected by the Senate. A simillar project with some modifications to make it more "acceptable" was discussed in 2020 and abortion was finally legalized last December. It must be said it had not the same amount of support than the gender identity law and until the end it was not sure whether history would repeat itself. And because of the gender identity law, the abortion law had to be writen as if women weren't the only ones able to get pregnant. And ever since it was passed the Catholic Church had been in arms to get it repealed.

And in spite of women being more than half the population, I think the abortion law has more chances to be repealled or not being applied than the gender identity law does. I've to say religious zealots don't like the trans issues either, but at the end of the day, they care more about aboortion.

So, when I say trans activists have a lot of political power I'm not making this stuff up. And I talked only about my country here, but trans activists have got many political victories in several other countries, too. It's ridiculous you keep claiming the trans lobby is, indeed, very powerfull.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Transitioned trans women are physically weaker. I wish you would stop presenting that wasn’t true.

I can’t speak to Argentina but I can say that trans people in my country had no national level protections ok any kind until lasts year when the Supreme Court decided that we should have employment protections. We still have no other protections on the national level. Like none. I don’t know if you understand our legal situation fully.

Abortion is a separate issue because of the religious “this is murder” component. They aren’t mutually exclusive and I for what it’s worth am vocally pro choice.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Biology said:

Males who "pass" as women, supposing any exists in the first place, don't have the same needs as actual women. For instance, hey have been socialized differently for starter and they have more chances to fight back against violent men because they are physically stronger than women.

To which you said

Transitioned trans women are physically weaker. I wish you would stop presenting that wasn’t true.

This is not true! Males who "transition" become slightly weaker compared to how they were previously, and to how they would be had they not mucked about with their hormones, but they do not come anywhere near the strength levels of female people. And they certainly don't become weaker than women.

The studies, which even TRA Joanna Harper now concedes are true, show that even after 36 months on trans-related drug treatment (high dose estrogen and the T blocker spiro), "trans women" lose only minimal amounts of muscle mass and strength.

Moreover, there are many aspects of male physiology that make males much stronger than females that aren't affected at all by TRDTs or surgeries, such as much bigger, heavier, stronger, denser, less breakable bones; larger and differently shaped feet; entirely different skeletal shape; much bigger hand size and far greater grip strength; much larger hearts and lungs relative to overall body size; less susceptablity to concussions, TBIs and fatal throat injuries from being choked; the ability to pack a punch that's 3.5 times more powerful than a blow with the arm and fist a female can deliver. Adult males have hearts that are 25-38% larger than the hearts of females of equivalent body size, which gives them huge advantages over women when it comes to fighting off a male assailant. Moreover, "transition" does not diminish the speed advantage that males have which give them a much better chance of being able to get away and run when being attacked by another male.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

This is not true! Males who "transition" become slightly weaker compared to how they were previously, and to how they would be had they not mucked about with their hormones, but they do not come anywhere near the strength levels of female people. And they certainly don't become weaker than women.

I didn’t say weaker than women I said weaker than men. And substantially so.

And heart volume isnt relevant we aren’t talking about sports we are talking about being attacked by men.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Glad you're not claiming they are weaker than women. Sorry I misunderstood, but your statement didn't specify.

Now that you've acknowledged that "after transition" TW are still stronger than women, will you acknowledge that this causes them to have the upper hand, as it were, in physical contests with women - and this is turn puts women at physical risk from TW who might wish to bully, intimidate, injure or sexually assault us ?

And heart volume isnt relevant we aren’t talking about sports we are talking about being attacked by men.

What? The significantly greater heart volume that adolescent and adult males have over females gives TW enormous advantages over women when being attacked by men. Fear has huge effects on the body, affecting cardiac functions like heart rate, blood flow, blood pressure and susceptibility to the heart seizing up and stopping altogether. When people are in fear and under physical assault the heart quickens and often pounds, the skin flushes, blood drains from the head and rushes to the extremities so that it's easier to punch, hit, kick and run... When under physical attack, the 25-38% advantage that males start out with in terms of heart size and power make TW far better able than women to cope physiologically, to react quickly, to fight off their attacker and to break free and run away from him.

When under physical attack, fractions of a second can make the difference between life and death, or between being victimized and being able to hurt your assailant or get away from him. You really think that the ability to get blood to the legs, arms, feet and hands 25-38% faster in such a situation does not give males a huge leg up over females when "being attacked by men"?

Also, "when being attacked by men" all the other features that I mentioned give males a much better chance of fighting off the attack than women have. Males are bigger, with stronger, denser bones, much thicker skulls, bigger hands and feet, far greater punching and kicking power, faster twitch fibers in their muscles, and faster reflexes and response times. Males have less vulnerability to concussion and TBI than women, they are far less likely to be choked to unconsciousness or death by a man's hands, and their facial structures make them much better able to withstand the blows from a man's fists than women.

Finally, when men rape girls and women, they can impregnate us - something that will never ever happen to a TW and which no TW anywhere ever has had to spend a nanosecond of life worrying about.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Now that you've acknowledged that "after transition" TW are still stronger than women, will you acknowledge that this causes them to have the upper hand, as it were, in physical contests with women - and this is turn puts women at physical risk from TW who might wish to bully, intimidate, injure or sexually assault us ?

I’m not convinced of that though I’m also not convinced we aren’t. Enough in question that I am against out participation in sport but I am not convinced it takes place in general safety.

A larger heart won’t stop a man from killing me.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

My claim was males who identify as women are stronger thatn women.

I'm not an expert, but I know more about the political situation of the US than you think. In the US there is not a federal law like the gender identity law in Argentina, and many Republicans are not on board with transgenderism. However, American trans acitivist have advanced many of their goals there. There are many males who identify as trans who are being discriminated at work, particularlt the heterosexual ones, although I think race and class play a role in this, too. There is a big market for "medical transition", even for minors. Informed consent seems to be norm, and many can access surgeries and hormones without a clinical diagnostic. A good bunch of the Media is very pro-TRA. Transgenderism is being promoted in schools and universities. Many people are expect to state their "prefered pronouns" at work. Disidents and people who question the TRA narrative are punished, particularly women. Males have competed in women's sports. Males have been sent to the female estate. Other women-only's spaces are being erased too and women have been hurt because of this, but this ignored by trans activists. Recently there was a cover of a girl who was sexually assaulted by a boy in a skirt on the girls' bathroom of the school. It's simple not true the trans lobby don't have political power in your country. Also American trans activists are very influential abroad.

[–]circlingmyownvoid2 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

We aren’t even influential here. Where I am I have employment protections federally and literally no other protections since my state has none.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe you don't notice, but current discurses about transgenderism are very American. One example is the way TRA talk about race. The same arguments are repeated in other English speaking countries. The same arguments are repetead in non English speaking countries. I heard many of the same arguments from local TRA despite they have even less sense in Spanish. The fact is the US has a lot of political and cultural influence abroad and a long history of interventionosm. American trans activists are not different. And there is no lack of people eager to adopt the lastest trends from the US.