QT/Trans: What do the language changes actually accomplish?

submitted by loveSloaneDebate King from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

We don't, you are not all people, it's not up to you to gender others against their will and dictate what inside their mind when you only have access to your own mind . I also thought transactivists like you usually claim to support agender and nonbinary people, you don't then, you will still go ahead and misgender them with false gender identities? If you don't have empathy for those without gender identities, how can you expect us to have empathy for those who have?

Everyone has a gender identity, even agender people. Agender is a gender identity. I never misgender anyone. If someone says they're a woman they're a woman. If someone says they're a man they're a man. If someone says they're non-binary, they're non-binary. If someone's gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth, they are by definition cisgender. If someone identifies with a different gender than assigned at birth, they are by definition transgender. Everyone has a gender assigned at birth and that is tied to biology.

Only those with cisgender gender identities find it not alienating, as they have a gender identity like you, but many of us are not cisgendered and don't have gender identities. I don’t care if you put yourself in gender box, your mind, your choice, but you have no right decide for other people, who don't even share you cisgender gender identity, that they must be okay with being put in a gender box.

Most people are cis, even those who don't like the term cis.

More people in both sexes supported the ban than opposed, not surprising.

My point is women are more likely than men to support transgender people. Everyday Feminism was founded by an Asian cis woman named Sandra Kim. The BabyCenter community supports trans rights and they are a pregnancy and birth board. They will quickly call you a TERF if you express a gender critical opinion. My point is regarding transgender stuff, men are more likely to be on your side than women.

Had they not been of the female reproductive sex it would have been physically impossible which means they are of the female reproductive sex. Sex refers to sex, not gender: As you say yourself, sex and gender should never be conflated so when I use words for the two sexes I indeed refer to sex, not gender anything.

They are not female and female refers to anyone who consistently identify as female.

Female is a sex, not gender so it’s always gender-neutral, unless you are genderist who has genderfied the word, which is morally wrong as you by that action genderfy the unwilling.

The point is we are trying to de-sex periods if that's the term you want to use. We are saying in humans, periods ≠ female.

Woman just means you are an adult human of the female reproductive sex so any adult human of the female reproductive sex is a woman as that is the only thing it refers to. If it means anything else to you then you are genderist who has genderfied the word, which is morally wrong as you by that action genderfy the unwilling.

Men and enbies who get periods are not female. Using the terms "women" and "female" don't include them.

No, they don’t. If you want other people to take your word for it when you say you have a gender identity then you should give other people the same respect when they say they lack one.

That's not how gender identity works.

What is a woman to you? A gender identity? Then it’s absolutely disrespectful of you to include anyone without a gender identity as that is msigendering. But if you exclude everyone without a gender identity you will have excluded people who have faced what we traditionally mean with women’s struggles, so your definition of women’s struggles would be different. It would refer to struggles some people face for having a certain gender identity. I don’t have a gender identity so I don’t know if people with gender identities, like you, tend to face certain issues when they come out as having a gender identity. Either way, if you think those with gender identities need to organize I don’t mind that, but it shouldn’t include anyone without a gender identity. Then we can have a different sex based organization for struggles we face for being of the female reproductive sex.

Everyone has a gender identity. Anyone who presents outwardly as female experiences female oppression, regardless of birth sex.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gonna ask for what must be the hundredth time- where do you get the authority to decide these things for all of humanity?

And why are you so quick to make these declarations but so unable to show any type of proof/evidence/science to justify dictating your will to the whole of society?

[–]Juniperius 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know, everybody here already knows your views. It is not a good debate tactic to just restate them over and over. You have to convince us that your views are better than ours- they are more factual, or they will lead to a better world, or something else that might make people change their minds. As it is you aren't debating and you aren't accomplishing anything, unless you are only here to recite catechism.

[–]strictly 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Agender is a gender identity

The definition of agender is not having a gender identity. Go to the agender subreddit and see how much they like being misgendered by you.

I never misgender anyone.

Insisting the all people without gender identities have one is misgendering, which you have done multiple times in this thread alone.

If someone says they're a woman they're a woman.

Is their definition of woman adult human of the female reproductive sex? That’s not a gender identity. Is your definition of woman adult human of the female reproductive sex? We already know it isn’t. Therefore you should use your word for adult human of the female reproductive sex when referring to them, not your word for a gender identity. So yeah, you are are misgendering them by referring to a gender identity when they referred to biology.

If someone's gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth, they are by definition cisgender.

You insist those without matching gender identities have one. People don’t like being lied about.

Most people are cis, even those who don't like the term cis.

A cisgendered person wouldn’t feel insulted when they are affirmed in their so called gender identity. You say you are cis, is feeling incongruent and lied about typical to you when you are called cis? If that’s the normal “cisgender” way of feeling I don’t see how you can believe in the existence of transgender people at all as they would just be regular cis people who just happen to dislike their cisgender gender identity to you.

Everyday Feminism was founded by an Asian cis woman named Sandra Kim.

Everyday Feminism supported the video where Riley J. Dennis shamed homosexuals for their sexual orientation so I don't care if that homophobic organization disagrees with me.

My point is regarding transgender stuff, men are more likely to be on your side than women.

I don’t adopt views because of the sex distribution of the views so I couldn’t care less if men are more likely to agree with me.

They are not female and female refers to anyone who consistently identify as female.

That is you genderfying a reproductive sex which is morally wrong, people shouldn’t be assigned with gender identities by you just for being born with a certain body.

The point is we are trying to de-sex periods if that's the term you want to use. We are saying in humans, periods ≠ female.

Periods are sexed, only one sex is physically capable of having periods, that's biology.

Men and enbies who get periods are not female. Using the terms "women" and "female" don't include them.

It’s physically impossible for people without a female biology to get periods, so yes, female include all people who menstruate. Gender identity never excludes anyone from being female as female is a biologic sex and female biology doesn’t prevent man- or nonbinary identities from forming, which trans people themselves are proof of.

Everyone has a gender identity. Anyone who presents outwardly as female experiences female oppression, regardless of birth sex.

Having a female body is neither gender identity nor a presentation, none of us got a say in our biological sex. You obviously don’t respect people without gender identities as you insist on misgendering us so I don't get why you expect us to more empathy for people with gender identities than you have for us. You evidently don’t think it’s a big deal to make people feel wrong and incogruent by misgendering them as long as that person lacks a gender identity. Personally I wouldn’t even have been against affirming trans people had the wanted affirmations not relied on everyone without a gender identity being msisgendered, but expecting us to to be okay with being constantly misgendered in the name of making trans people feel better is unacceptable.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The definition of agender is not having a gender identity. Go to the agender subreddit and see how much they like being misgendered by you.

Agender means being neither a man or a woman. It's part of being non-binary. You can't be agender and be a woman at the same time. You are welcome to call yourself agender, just next week don't say you're oppressed because you're a woman because agender people are neither men or women. Also, it is agender people who are promoting inclusive language because the term "women" doesn't include them when discussing periods or uteruses.

Everyday Feminism supported the video where Riley J. Dennis shamed homosexuals for their sexual orientation so I don't care if that homophobic organization disagrees with me.

I don't agree with everything Everyday Feminism writes but they have excellent articles about racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, ageism or any other type of oppression.

I don’t adopt views because of the sex distribution of the views so I couldn’t care less if men are more likely to agree with me.

Cool, but if the transgender movement is so harmful to women then why are women more likely to support it? And don't tell me women are socialized to be nice and kind and sweet. Most women are capable of critical and rational thinking and not everything we support is out of emotion.

That is you genderfying a reproductive sex which is morally wrong, people shouldn’t be assigned with gender identities by you just for being born with a certain body.

Most of the trans community does not define sex by biology.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

but if the transgender movement is so harmful to women then why are women more likely to support it?

There were women who protested the suffragettes and black slaves in America who protested being freed…

Sometimes people side against their best interests. It’s usually due to ignorance, manipulation, or fear.

Most women are capable of critical and rational thinking and not everything we support is out of emotion.

Most. Not all. And a lot of causes that gain public support gain it because of emotional reactions.

[–]strictly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agender means being neither a man or a woman.

Agender means not having gender identity, that's the definition.

You can't be agender and be a woman at the same time.

Agender people can’t be women to you you as you have genderfied that word into gender identitiy, making it misgendering if you assign an agender person with that gender identity. You could have chosen not genderfy woman though and let it stay about biology.

You are welcome to call yourself agender

I meet the definition, many people do.

don't say you're oppressed because you're a woman

I lack gender identity but I still share adult human female biology with Elliot Page, thus like Elliot Page I can face sexism because of my biology, and woman is the word for adult humans with a biology like me and Elliot Page.

I don't agree with everything Everyday Feminism writes but they have excellent articles about racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, ageism or any other type of oppression.

They paid a homophobe to tell homosexuals that we need overcome our sexuality, they haven’t shown any regret about it.

Cool, but if the transgender movement is so harmful to women then why are women more likely to support it?

If so few women find women-identifying males harmful in female sports why do women who want to ban women-identifying males from female sport outnumber the women against the ban?

And don't tell me women are socialized to be nice and kind and sweet. Most women are capable of critical and rational thinking and not everything we support is out of emotion.

Why don't you tell why you think you are more likely than a man to be against the ban?

Most of the trans community does not define sex by biology.

If trans people and trans activists have genderfied the words for sex too it means they engage in misgendering when they call people male and female too, which is morally wrong as people shouldn’t be misgendered just for having a sex, aka a biology they had no say in.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Can you define what presenting as female is? Cause I’ve never presented myself as female, I just look female by nature. Presenting as something implies a degree of will and deliberate actions that must be female. What are they? When did the world shrink down to only be mumsnet and everyday feminism? Are there no other women on the internet? On the planet? You refer to these websites like they are a collection of the thoughts of all women, not a small demographic.

How do we have gender identity without knowing it? What are you defining gender identity as? Imo you’re conflating awareness of ones sex, which practically everyone has, with a gender identity and then projecting that incorrect idea.

How did you come to know the identities of everyone? How did you come to understand them better than the individuals to whom they belong? You must understand them better to be able to determine they have a gender identity when they themselves do not see it.

Can you actually bother to answer me for once? Seems weird how you only answer one in every ten things I ask you, and only when you can copy +paste a slogan in, rather than actually typing out some thoughts.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

When did the world shrink down to only be mumsnet and everyday feminism?

Houseplant, I don't get why you've brought up Mumsnet here. GenderBender mentioned Everyday Feminism and the Baby Center, not Mumsnet. Mumsnet is not like those other sites. Mumsnet is the place on the internet that I feel most at home. This is particularly true of the Feminism/Women's Rights section - which is widely known as the "radicalization portal" for the "terven" - and whose regular users are extremely well-informed and intelligent. But it's also true of the rest of Mumsnet too.

Mumsnet is place where millions of women - and many men - from a wide variety of backgrounds, walks of life and numerous different countries with highly varying points of view engage in vigorous debate about all sorts of topics - and do a lot of swearing too. It's not a site just for mums or parents, nor is it concerned solely with matters having to do with pregnancy, babies and child-rearing - though concern for children and other vulnerable groups is big on the site. But many users don't have children. I personally went to Mumsnet for the feminism, and it's the feminism that brings me back on a daily basis.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Made a mistake with names lol