QT: Is there such a thing as a man wants to be a woman? + 10 additional questions

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

1. Is there such a thing as a man who wants to be a woman?

Yes but when someone begins identifying as a woman then they are a woman and vice versa.

2. What’s the difference between men & women?

https://relationship-institute.com/differences-between-men-and-women/

https://askthescientists.com/men-women-different/

3. If “sex & gender are not the same thing” then why do transGENDER people try to alleviate their GENDER dysphoria by taking cross-SEX hormones?

Because presenting as another sex alleviates dysphoria

4. Why is every transgender sex offender male?

Source?

5. If a member of the male sex is trying but failing to pass as the opposite sex, is he “living as a woman” or “living as a cross-dresser”?

Trans men are men and trans women are women.

6. If both gay men’s brains & same-sex attracted transsexuals’ brains have similarities with straight women’s brains, are gay men women, or are same-sex attracted transsexuals gay men?

Source?

7. What word can we use to describe adult members of the female sex, since your ideology insists that ‘woman’ should exclude some adult members of the female sex?

What do you mean? You can use "men" and "women" to describe men and women. If you mean birth sex, you can use "assigned female at birth". "natal female" or "biological female."

8. Isn’t erasing & appropriating the female sex by co-opting the words: ‘girl’, ‘woman’ & even ‘female’ sexist?

I consider trans females to be females so they aren't co-opting anything.

9. a) If the majority of early-onset dysphorics desist before adulthood & end up gay (according to every study on desistance), then isn’t encouraging dysphoric gay kids to transition into being “straight” quite literally gay conversion therapy?

I don't think young kids should be given hormones and surgeries. But pronouns and name changes aren't permanent. Also we do not encourage kids to transition into being straight. We allow them to transition to their desired gender. Trans men can be gay and trans women can be lesbian.

9. b) If desistance is natural & cures dysphoria, while transition isn’t & doesn’t, then why encourage transition & discourage desistance, instead of the other way around?

We don't discourage desistance. If someone wants to detransition or desist altogether, it's their choice. On the other hand, I can find posts where GCs pressure their friends or family members to desist when they don't want to.

https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/comments/g5lkqo/how_many_years_does_it_usually_take_a_tif_to/

https://ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/41108/how-can-i-dissuade-a-friend-from-becoming-tif

10. Is exclusive same-sex attraction “transphobic”?

No. You can't control who you're attracted to, and it's fine to refuse to date or sleep with anyone for any reason. But trans gay men have the right to be in gay male spaces like gay bars and trans lesbians have the right to be in lesbian spaces.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

1- Are you going to ever define the words male, female, man and woman? Also begins identifying? I though QT said "transwomen" have always been women and likewise for "transmen".

2- So, according to the first link I'm more man than women... Weren't you against sex stereotypes? Are you aware the second link is about biological sex and not "gender identity"?

3- How? Why not other mental health issue is treated in the same way? Why aren't doctors given anorexic people liposuctions?

5- What do "transwomen" and women have in common? What do "transmen" and men have in common?

7- Nobody is assigned a sex at birth. Sex is determined at conception and observed at birth or earlier. Why do GC gets acussed of reducing people to their genitals by insisting on a biological definition of woman and man, but terms like "bodies with vagina" or "menstruators" are considered "inclusive"?

8- Earlier in your post you said that presenting as the other sex alleviates dysphoria, and here you're saying "transwomen" are female. How is that possible. If they are "female", how can they present as the other sex.

9a- Social "transition" encourages further steps, though.

9b- QT is always "transing" the dead and questioning if people who break sex stereotypes aren't really "trans".

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

  1. Male and female people are people who have a sense of being male or female. With gender dysphoria, your mind tells you that you were ment to be a different sex. Gender euphoria is the opposite. You are happy with your sex and possibly recoil at being another sex. That is your gender identity.

  2. Yes I am aware that the 2nd link is about biology and I just skimmed through the links. Thanks for pointing that out.

  3. As of this time, transition is the only cure for dysphoria.

  4. The phrase "trans women and women" is a misnomer because trans women are women and trans men are men. I'm assuming you mean trans women and cis women. They're both women. Trans men and cis men are both men. Trans women who pass are treated like women by society and vice versa. Trans women who pass look like cis women and trans men who pass look like cis men. Trans men on hormones have beards and facial hair, and skin typical of men.

  5. People are assigned male, female or intersex. We use phrases like "people with vaginas" because it's not only women who have vaginas.

  6. I really meant to say presenting as the sex you identify with alleviates dysphoria.

9a. If the kid later decides to get hormones as an adult, they are responsible for their decision. No one is forcing them to take hormones, change their names and tell people their pronouns are so-and-so.

9b. I personally don't trans dead people unless they have indicated they are trans themselves. Brandon Teena identified as a male in his senior year of HS, took hormones, changed his name and even told people he was intersex when asked by his girlfriend why he was housed in the female section of the prison. If he identified as a woman he would have simply stated he is a woman, or maybe this wouldn't be a question at all as he wouldn't have been on hormones. His mother was not supportive of his transition and refused to accept his male identity, continuing to refer to Teena as her "daughter." I do believe trans people have existed as long as humans have, but unless the person personally identified as a gender different from the one assigned at birth, I don't trans them.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

1- So, what does having a sense of being male of female even means? If you think "transwomen" are women and female, what do you mean by they people with gender dysphoria were meant to be a different sex?

2- If you're going to define women and men by "gender identity", then it doesn't make sense to list biological differences.

So, are you against sex stereotypes or not? Do you believe men are the logical and rational sex as your first link argued? If you believe in ladybrain, then can you explain to me why brain scans are not used to diagnose gender dysphoria?

3- How do you define "to cure"? Because it think it's self-evident the distress doesn't go away even after doing a full "medical transition" and can be triggered by anyone mentioning the sex of the trans identified person. At most, "medical transition" works as a placebo. A placebo, with many side effects and that still requires everyone else to accomodate their actions and words so not to remind trans identified people of their sex... Maybe that is why doctors aren't giving anorexic patients liposuctions...?

4- If "trans men" are treated as men by society, why the Media talks mostly about them when they get pregnant? If "transwomen" are treated as women by society, how is possible they are ones leading the "trans movement"?

5- Even if you want to insist that sex is "assigned" rather than observed, in modern times this "assigment" often takes places before the baby is born... Look, I doubt very much you haven't heard of stuff like ultrasounds, so you saying "sex assigned at birth" tells me you are likely repeating what you have been told in places like reddit or everyday feminism because you are a "good ally" and you haven't sit down to analize any of this makes any sense (because doing so would be "transphobic", I guees).

As for intersex, people with disorders of sex development (DSD) are not an intermediate sex. They are still either male or femlale. DSD is an umbrella term that includes many different medical conditions, most of which are sex-specific, affecting the development of the reproductive system and that can be diagnosed after doing a bunch of studies. Trans issues have little in common with DSDs and most trans identified people are unambiguosly 46, XY males or 46, XX females.

By the way, I think you should know the term "assigned sex at birth" comes originally from the practice of assigning a sex of rearing to babies with ambiguos sex characteristics. Speaking of which, maybe it would be a good idea to read on the story of David Reimer, who lost his penis after a failed circumcision and was "assigned female" by John Money.

6- It sitll doesn't make sense. You are using the word sex to talk about biological features you're born with or the way someone "identify as" depending on what is more convenient for you at the moment. Can you tell me what you think sex is?

9a- How do you know nobody is forcing them? Do you really think a 2-year-old kid has an appropriate understanding of sex and gender to be able to decide what their "true self" really is? Kids will pretend to be many things when they are playing. If a 4-year-old boy says he is Superman, should the parents "affirm" his new found identity"? If a 3-year-old girl says she is really a dog, should their parents "affirm" her new identity and take her to the veterinarian rather than the paediatrician?

Furthermore, currently children are getting hormones and surgeries way before they turn 18 years old.

Scottish doctors approved breast removal for 51 trans teenagers

Chest Reconstruction and Chest Dysphoria in Transmasculine Minors and Young Adults

Eligible youth were 13 to 25 years old, had been assigned female at birth, and had an identified gender as something other than female. Recruitment occurred during clinical visits and via telephone between June 2016 and December 2016. Surveys were collected from participants who had undergone chest surgery at the time of survey collection and an equal number of youth who had not undergone surgery.

2 participants in this survey had a bilacteral mastectomy at age 13, 5 had one at age 14, 9 at age 15, 9 at age 16, and 8 at age 17.

A summary of "gender affirmative treatmen" for adolescents can be found here.

And I think the practice of binding, which "trans boys" do as part of "social transition" to hide their breasts, deserves a mention, too.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So, what does having a sense of being male of female even means? If you think "transwomen" are women and female, what do you mean by they people with gender dysphoria were meant to be a different sex?

I meant people with gender dysphoria were meant to be a different sex than the one that was assigned to them biologically.

If you're going to define women and men by "gender identity", then it doesn't make sense to list biological differences.

These are differences typically seen in men and women. They don't apply to everyone, even among cis people.

So, are you against sex stereotypes or not? Do you believe men are the logical and rational sex as your first link argued? If you believe in ladybrain, then can you explain to me why brain scans are not used to diagnose gender dysphoria?

I am against sex stereotypes. Studies show men and women have different brain sizes, and I'm strictly referring to size and nothing else. Studies also show trans people have brain sizes corresponding to the sex they identify with.

How do you define "to cure"? Because it think it's self-evident the distress doesn't go away even after doing a full "medical transition" and can be triggered by anyone mentioning the sex of the trans identified person. At most, "medical transition" works as a placebo. A placebo, with many side effects and that still requires everyone else to accomodate their actions and words so not to remind trans identified people of their sex... Maybe that is why doctors aren't giving anorexic patients liposuctions...?

Many trans people say transition alleviates dysphoria. It's only a placebo to GCs. Also it's not hard to use people's preferred pronouns. My co-worker who hasn't physically transitioned goes by she/her pronouns and I use them 100%. If she was a stranger and I didn't know her pronouns I would use he until told otherwise. I always use the pronouns a person indicates they prefer.

If "trans men" are treated as men by society, why the Media talks mostly about them when they get pregnant? If "transwomen" are treated as women by society, how is possible they are ones leading the "trans movement"?

There is no need to put trans men in quotes.

I said trans men are treated as men by society, not the media. My own trans male friends told me once they started passing, they were no longer sexually harassed and were treated as competent by other men instead of being dismissed as if they don't know about the subject. Trans people largely do not control how the media portrays them. Trans men are absolutely leading the trans movement. Chase Strangio, Elliot Page, Gavin Grimm, Buck Angel. The problem is 1. GCs think trans men are largely incapable of activism 2. GCs usually get upset when they see trans male representation. For instance, language like "people with vaginas" is meant to include people who have vaginas but aren't female, and these are the people pushing for this language. Yet GCs blame trans women pushing for this language because AFAB people are "socialized female" and thus are incapable of demanding change. Not everyone who is AFAB is female but yes women are capable of demanding change and claiming they aren't is perpetuating the same sex stereotypes they claim to be against. Why do women have the right to vote? Because women demanded change. Why are women allowed to work the same jobs men are? Because women demanded change. Why is it now socially acceptable for women to wear pants? Because women demanded change. GCs are the ones who usually (not always) overlook trans male activists.

2nd, I said GCs usually don't like trans male visibility. If their favorite show suddenly included a trans male character, someone will make a post on Ovarit about how they will stop watching the show. They've already made posts like that. They were upset trans men are including in Ru Paul's drag race. When Elliot Page came out as trans Ovarit users made all kind of nasty comments like calling page narcissistic, or "shattered by her deeply misogynistic and lesbophobic move." or "This is literal conversion therapy." These are actual comments taken from this thread. Now if someone is a narcissist, they were always a narcissist. But GCs never called Page a narcissist until he came out. Looking through [Reddit archives](https://camas.github.io/reddit-search/#{%22subreddit%22:%22gendercritical%22,%22searchFor%22:1,%22resultSize%22:100,%22query%22:%22ellen%20page%22}) (r/GenderCritical was banned before Page came out) they never called him a narcissist, but there was a post where they were displeased when page talked about trans women of color when discussing his experience with sexual harassment, and they were made Page was on board with the trans stuff, but they never called him a narcissist. He was only a narcissist when he came out. On Ovarit they called Page lesbophobic, even though page was once a lesbian and I can't recall her making negative comments about lesbians. Being trans itself is not lesbophobic.

As for intersex, people with disorders of sex development (DSD) are not an intermediate sex. They are still either male or femlale.

Most intersex people are either male or female at birth, but very few aren't. Pidgeon Pagonis is an intersex activist who uses they/them pronouns. Their birth sex is unclear. Pagonis advocates for intersex human rights and against nonconsensual intersex medical interventions.

By the way, I think you should know the term "assigned sex at birth" comes originally from the practice of assigning a sex of rearing to babies with ambiguos sex characteristics.

I can't find any source indicating that's where the term originated.

Speaking of which, maybe it would be a good idea to read on the story of David Reimer, who lost his penis after a failed circumcision and was "assigned female" by John Money.

He was coercively reassigned female.

It sitll doesn't make sense. You are using the word sex to talk about biological features you're born with or the way someone "identify as" depending on what is more convenient for you at the moment. Can you tell me what you think sex is?

If I was talking about biological sex I would use the term "birth sex" or "assigned fe/male at birth".

How do you know nobody is forcing them? Do you really think a 2-year-old kid has an appropriate understanding of sex and gender to be able to decide what their "true self" really is? Kids will pretend to be many things when they are playing. If a 4-year-old boy says he is Superman, should the parents "affirm" his new found identity"? If a 3-year-old girl says she is really a dog, should their parents "affirm" her new identity and take her to the veterinarian rather than the paediatrician?

If you read my original comment it says "If the kid later decides to get hormones as an adult" so if someone decides they are trans at 12, and everyone respects the boy's identity and use his pronouns. Then this person turns 18 and decides to go on hormones and have top surgery, they will be the ones responsible for their decision.

Furthermore, currently children are getting hormones and surgeries way before they turn 18 years old.

Your own link "Chest Reconstruction and Chest Dysphoria in Transmasculine Minors and Young Adults" says most people who got top surgery as teens do not regret it. "Self-reported regret was near 0."

And I think the practice of binding, which "trans boys" do as part of "social transition" to hide their breasts, deserves a mention, too.

If chest binding is done properly there are no risks. And it's not permanent like a double mastectomy.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your own link "Chest Reconstruction and Chest Dysphoria in Transmasculine Minors and Young Adults" says most people who got top surgery as teens do not regret it. "Self-reported regret was near 0."

But that paper was about a 10-minute-long survey of girls & young women who had double mastectomies relatively soon after their surgeries; it wasn't an in-depth study that followed up patients long term. Of the 68 trans-identified double mastectomy patients surveyed, 59 had their breasts removed less than two years before they were surveyed. Moreover, 28% of the clinic patients who had double mastectomies and were intended to be included in the study did not participate - 24 because they "could not be contacted" and two because they "refused the survey." That's a lot of patients left out.

Nearly half (49%) of the 68 patients surveyed had been under 18 at the time they had their breasts removed, and nearly half (48%) of the ones under 18 were 15 or under when they had their double mastectomies. It's unrealistic to think that teenage girls and young women who have been through this sort of surgical trauma, and caught up in gender identity ideology for years beforehand, will be in touch with all their feelings about the surgery 12-24 months afterwards, and it's even more unrealistic to think traumatized girls & young women will honestly and forthrightly reveal all their feelings when someone from the clinic that caused to the trauma happens to call them on the phone for a brief survey. At the same time, there's good reason to believe that the clinic workers who called the surgery patients might not have been open to hearing and recording the responses of girls & women who tried to regrets or mixed feelings.

Also, it's telling that the paper doesn't provide a copy of the 10-minute-long survey showing exactly what it involved. We just know that it consisted of statements that the participants were asked whether they agreed or disagreed with and how often. About surgical regret, the paper simply says

All postsurgical participants (68 of 68; 100%) affirmed the statement, “It was a good decision to undergo chest reconstruction.” Sixty-seven of 68 postsurgical respondents reported no regret about undergoing the procedure. Only 1 participant (who was older than 18 years at the time of surgery) reported experiencing regret “sometimes.”

Seems to me such a format is intentionally aimed at not exploring any of the participants feelings except in the most cursory way without delving below the most surface level or allowing for the respondents to expound further.

If chest binding is done properly there are no risks. And it's not permanent like a double mastectomy.

A survey 1800 females who bind about the health effects found that negative health consequences were "nearly universal." And this was among a population where only 51.5% said they bound their breasts every day.

97.2% of participants reporting at least one negative outcome they attributed to binding. The most commonly reported outcomes were

  • back pain (53.8%),
  • overheating(53.5%),
  • chest pain (48.8%),
  • shortness of breath (46.6%),
  • itching (44.9%),
  • bad posture (40.3%), and
  • shoulder pain (38.9%) (Table 3).

Of the categories examined, skin/soft tissue and pain symptoms were most common with 76.3% of respondents reporting any skin/tissue concern and 74.0% reporting any pain-related concern.

Abstract: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13691058.2016.1191675?journalCode=tchs20

Full text: https://queerdoc.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Binding-Health-Project-Results.pdf