GC: What are "sex-based" rights?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Men are a threat to women. Other women can suck up to a patriarchal society, but they're ultimately not the ones causing the issues, nor are they a threat to other women. As such, GC focuses on upholding the rights of women in face of a male threat.

Yup, women are never a threat to men. Talk about stereotypes.

Misogynistic movements tend to disregard women, which is why you see the same patriarchal dynamics play out the same way, even when the parties involved roleplay as the opposite sex.

Well the trans movement disregards trans men more than trans women. Anyway, there is no such thing as roleplaying the opposite sex. When you transition, you are the sex you identify as.

It's almost like even supposedly progressive people understand why trans ideology is bullshit.

Being trans is only "bullshit" to transphobes.

Is this going to end up with you going full MRA claiming that men are actually the real victims of society?

There are ways which men are disadvantaged by society over women. Pointing it out does not make you an MRA or a misogynist.

Duh. More women in general are supportive of progressive movements. I have yet to come across a progressive movement where women didn't let others walk over them, or threw other women under the bus for the patriarchy's approval.

The reason trans men oppose gender critical feminist is because the movement is transphobic to them and contradicts their values. For instance, many trans men get top surgery and sometimes bottom surgery, but GCs consider that "mutilation". Many GCs insist the majority of trans men are transitioning to escape sexism but most trans men say that is not why they are transitioning. GCs even call trans gay men attracted to other men fetishists and fujoshis.

I'm a progressive cis woman. I don't let anyone walk all over me and I have excellent critical thinking skills, and I still support the trans community.

I mean, we also talk over women who think it is their duty to be an obedient slave to their husband and a walking sex doll for the male gaze. Talking over misogynistic women has always been what feminism does.

Trans men aren't women. They are a separate, marginalized group. I oppose any privileged group talking over a marginalized group. This includes cis people talking over trans men, including cis women.

Is there any misogynistic woman out there who just comes out and says that she hates women?

Yes. There are women who opposed women's rights to vote. There are women who believe women should be restricted to certain occupations. There are women who harshly judge other women for not meeting their standards of modesty.

Also, what is it with you using Reddit threads as...evidence? I've talked to plenty of trans people and been to their spaces. None of what you say is in any way surprising to me, or the GC movement. It's pretty consistent with how men and women act under patriarchal pressures in other areas as well.

So the Reddit threads I cite aren't surprising but aren't evidence either?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Well the trans movement disregards trans men more than trans women. Anyway, there is no such thing as roleplaying the opposite sex. When you transition, you are the sex you identify as.

"Trans men" are disregarded in the trans movement because everyone knows they are biologically female (you know, the kind of people who can produce eggs and get pregnant). Yes, even other trans identified people and the most fervent supporters understand this fact even if they won't ever admit it out loud. It's not a coincidence this is the only movement that put "men" last. Playing word games won't change reality. You can glue a horn onto a horse's head and make everyone call it an unicorn. It's still a horse!

Trans men aren't women. They are a separate, marginalized group. I oppose any privileged group talking over a marginalized group. This includes cis people talking over trans men, including cis women.

Either trans identified people are marginalized group who are oppressed in the worst ways possible by a hierarchy of "cis" vs "trans", or most people respect their chosen "identities" and GC are a fringe group who nobody else likes. Pick a damn position! You cannot have it both ways!

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

"Trans men" are disregarded in the trans movement because everyone knows they are biologically female (you know, the kind of people who can produce eggs and get pregnant).

Julia Serano, a transgender activist and author of Whipping Girl explains why trans men are often invisible. “Women’s appearances get more attention, women’s actions are commented on and critiqued more than men, so in that world it just makes sense that people will focus more on trans women than trans men." Our cultural obsession with feminine beauty contributes to the imbalance.

Either trans identified people are marginalized group who are oppressed in the worst ways possible by a hierarchy of "cis" vs "trans", or most people respect their chosen "identities" and GC are a fringe group who nobody else likes. Pick a damn position! You cannot have it both ways!

Cis means identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth. Trans means identifying with a different gender than the one assigned at birth. They are essentially adjectives which may be relevant or irrelevant. Many people accept trans identities, but that doesn't mean they aren't a marginalized group.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

“Women’s appearances get more attention, women’s actions are commented on and critiqued more than men, so in that world it just makes sense that people will focus more on trans women than trans men."

OR, it's because people have always felt more resentful of men, a superior life form that they are, stooping down to the level of inferior women. Meanwhile, inferior women trying to take on a superior male role are seen as mildly amusing. Men who take on a feminine gender role get the same sort of ire whether they identify as gay, crossdressers, trans etc. Male trans people aren't some special case, they're treated the same way other men in their basket are treated. People don't focus on male trans people because "they're actually women", but because they're feminine men. That is how they are perceived, which is why they get treated that way.

You cannot even form an opinion beyond using quotes and then ignoring any counter-arguments because you can't form a retort. Why do you think anyone here gives a fuck who "Julia Serano" is, or what his fetish book is called?

Many people accept trans identities, but that doesn't mean they aren't a marginalized group.

Trans people cannot both have everyone on their side seeing them as their desired gender, AND also complain about how everyone is misgendering them and refusing to believe people can change their sex.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 4 fun1 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

OR, it's because people have always felt more resentful of men, a superior life form that they are, stooping down to the level of inferior women. Meanwhile, inferior women trying to take on a superior male role are seen as mildly amusing. Men who take on a feminine gender role get the same sort of ire whether they identify as gay, crossdressers, trans etc. Male trans people aren't some special case, they're treated the same way other men in their basket are treated. People don't focus on male trans people because "they're actually women", but because they're feminine men. That is how they are perceived, which is why they get treated that way.

Perhaps yes, people do see trans women as "feminine men" but that doesn't mean they are feminine men. I also feel trans men are disregarded because they are seen as less threatening than trans women.

Trans people cannot both have everyone on their side seeing them as their desired gender, AND also complain about how everyone is misgendering them and refusing to believe people can change their sex.

I will use racism as an analogy. Many people, including white people, are trying to fight systemic racism. Last year a lot of people showed up and marched in BLM protests, McDonalds made a commercial supporting BLM and marginalized people, and many want critical race theory taught in schools. There were even laws passed to hold police accountable. But this in no way means systemic racism is over. A lot of white people are racist even now and we still have long ways to go. It would be like saying disabled people are no longer marginalized because more people are accepting, we have the ADA and an autistic character on Sesame Street. People are becoming more accepting of transgender people which is a good thing, but we still have long ways to go. Trans people are often fired from their jobs for coming out and are even face harassment in public including public restrooms.

[–]adungitit 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

people do see trans women as "feminine men" but that doesn't mean they are feminine men.

Oh absolutely. Them being men has nothing to do with how people perceive them, instead it's simply a biological fact. If everyone believed the Earth was flat, it still wouldn't be flat. The Earth didn't turn spherical just because enough people decided it was going to be that way, it's spherical simply because that's what it is, and how you, I or everyone in the world feels about it or whether they even know it has no bearing on that.

Despite this, however, how people perceive someone does matter insofar as what kind of socialisation they get, and it's simply not possible to live in a society and avoid gendered socialisation, hence why trans people act in line with it.

I also feel trans men are disregarded because they are seen as less threatening than trans women.

In other words, because they are seen as women, and women simply aren't a threat like men are, as proven by statistics you keep ignoring and lying through your teeth about.

The fetish book you have quoted claims that male trans people are marginalised because women are marginalised, because if people are judgemental of women, they are judgemental even more of...women who aren't actually women? As you yourself have had to admit, it's not because they're more of a woman than actual women, it's because they're simply feminine men, and recognised and treated as such.

I will use racism as an analogy.

Anti-racists aren't switching between claiming everyone is race-blind and claiming everyone is racist. Black people are marginalised because they are recognised as black, and this recognition carries with it ideas of racial inferiority/superiority that they are judged by, as well as race-specific conditions that they grow up in. A more apt analogy to the trans movement would be if we decided that racism was over if everyone just changed their race willy-nilly (i.e. if transracialism became mainstream), labelled all black people as privileged oppressors of trans-black people, and decided to focus all our efforts on combatting the true racism of people not believing any white person who says they're black.