No. I’m saying they are taught it as normalcy and propriety from birth.

Is this the argument that says conforming people are naturally blank but the non conforming naturally have a personality that matches opposite gender cultural norms?

I don’t know what they want, but I doubt the average woman wakes up and says I will wear a skirt because it is womanly.

I think women do generally want to express some form of femininity and men do want to express some form of masculinity.

The small percentage of non conforming people are not evidence the majority want to be non conforming.

It’s not ridiculous, what’s ridiculous is the idea of anybody being truly gender conforming. Nobody meets every norm assigned to their sex.

Well if everyone is non conforming what is the problem? How could we tell if gender was abolished if everyone is non conforming?

The non conforming can't face discrimination because there is no minority of non conforming people to discriminate against.

I just don’t think gender is innate or particularly meaningful when one doesn’t obsess over it like qt does.

I don't think popular qt ideas on gender are entirely accurate.

I often think it's a mess.

I disagree with gender relating to sexuality. How does sexuality translate to ideas like women are emotional, men are aggressive, girls are highly, boys are grubby etc? How does sexuality relate to gender at all?

Women are emotional is a bad idea. Both sexes are emotional. They may not overall on average express the same emotions over time.

I don't think that gender is entirely sexual it can also be about other utilitarian biological drives. On average men are going to be more useful in tasks that require strength, for example violence. Where as women on average are going to be better at breast feeding. I don't think natural behaviour would be indifferent to that.

Evolution isn't planned, schematic or strictly rational.

I do think men are on average more aggressive in all societies. That does not mean all men are aggressive and women never employ aggression.

Does aggression play a role sexuality, well it often does, even if society objects to it.

I agree anyone who presents as gnc and actively makes an effort to do so due to gendered thinking has not escaped gender.

Agreed then.

What about those of us who simply don’t assign a gender or sex to our preferences? Is that a lie we tell ourselves?

Well if a person is strongly gnc, expressing a lot of opposite gender norms, and they say it has nothing to do with gender I think they are wrong.

That does not mean they should or ought to take on a trans identity.

Does that somehow affect our sexuality if the two are linked?

What do you mean by affect?

I think strong gender non conformity will affect how others see the person sexually.

Most people act on the sexual expression of others.

This seems like a whole lot of odd and some sexist assumptions being presented as something like factual or given knowledge.

Sure. I'm arguing a position of how I see things and why they are the way the are.

Can I see the political problems of some of the positions? Very much so. I can often empathise with a political rejection of them.

But I can't unsee the patterns.

How does the oppression of women fit into innate gender? Is that oppression the natural order?

Politically I oppose the oppression of women. I can't honestly say "women are oppressed" in my country Scotland. That does not mean I think society or government is perfect for women but gender oppression seems like an inaccurate description and unfair on the good work done by previous politica1l activists and unfair compared to women in cultures that are explicitly oppressive. But that's besides the point of the natural order question.

Men being on average more aggressive does not make it an ought. There is more than one drive in humans and they can be conflicting. Society can be over all better for men and women if we work to mitigate that aggression.

For example if men or humans in general have a natural latent urge for violence, cultural or state policies that seek to suppress that will be more successful than an assumption that violence is not natural and policies should built around reaching society without violence.