QT, if gender is innate to identity

submitted by HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

Preference. When you’re smart enough and mature enough to realise that men’s pants don’t make you less of a woman, you can make less restricted choices without fear of rejection from peers. Society is not as restrictive as it was historically in the modern west regarding clothes.

When less value is placed on conformity it’s easier to break free. Society always has those who reject certain constraints.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (18 children)

Preference

But you agreed strong gnc people are not escaping gender.

When you say

I agree anyone who presents as gnc and actively makes an effort to do so due to gendered thinking has not escaped gender.

If they do not agree with gender theory but act on a strongly gendered pattern can they be said not be acting on gender?

They are acting on gender. They did not create that gender pattern.

When less value is placed on conformity it’s easier to break free. Society always has those who reject certain constraints.

This is part of the problem I have. The GC side ends up seeing femininity as a prison and masculinity as freedom.

Women doing masculinity isn't the end of gender unless all women do it.

Everyone being masculine is internally coherent. It makes sense. In that case gender would be abolished.

But people don't want that and gc has a problem justify why anyone would want to be feminine. GC correctly points out that femininity is a social construction associated with women. But it often sees masculinity as neutrality.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

The GC side ends up seeing femininity as a prison and masculinity as freedom.

it often sees masculinity as neutrality.

This is a total fantasy you have invented out of whole cloth. It's tosh that reflects your own genderist mindset & sexist prejudices.

Please stop telling other people with views different to yours - the vast majority of whom are women - what we think.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (15 children)

I take neutrality for granted. Femininity is something artificial that is only expected of women. The opposite of femininity is really neutrality, not masculinity.

Well this was said to me recently.

I find it confusing because they claim to be very masculine but also that they are neutral.

That everyone should be neutral. I find the desire that everyone should be masculine more internally cohesive as an idea. But impossible for natural reasons not because it is beyond imagining.

[–]Juniperius 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

For example, it is considered feminine to pluck your eyebrows. Which takes up a stupid amount of time, and is painful, and doesn't serve any purpose except to pander to the male gaze. If a woman doesn't want to pluck her eyebrows, people may consider that "masculine," when it may just be about not wanting to waste time on something that hurts and doesn't actually improve her life. There could be any number of examples like this. Femininity is often painful, time consuming, hobbling, expensive, etc. It's possible to not do anything active to make oneself look feminine, and also not do anything active to make oneself look masculine, and the result will often be interpreted by outsiders as being masculine.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's possible to not do anything active to make oneself look feminine, and also not do anything active to make oneself look masculine, and the result will often be interpreted by outsiders as being masculine.

This seems to me to be a generational thing. I don't think it applies to older women. We are invisible to much of the world so outsiders aren't interpreting how we look as masculine, feminine or neutral - strangers/outsiders don't see us or register us in their consciousness at all.

I think it's a class thing too. Whilst it's true that many women "of a certain age" are into trying to stay young & "feminine" looking today like those TV housewives, a majority of working-class women I see & know are very basic & neutral in appearance - practical hair, no makeup, comfortable clothes, sensible shoes, little or no jewelry. Many younger women with jobs & kids that I encounter are the same way.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (12 children)

I don't expect male and female gender norms to be identical perfect mirrors.

It's possible to not do anything active to make oneself look feminine, and also not do anything active to make oneself look masculine, and the result will often be interpreted by outsiders as being masculine.

Well currently not cutting your hair is usually coded female. So that isn't a universal rule. Men very much are judged on what they are doing.

[–]Juniperius 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Cutting/not cutting hair is a little more complicated, though. Long hair requires a lot more care. I've grown my hair long a few times in my life, and I always end up chopping it off again because I get sick of the time it takes to keep it untangled and clean. When it's short, I barely even have to shampoo it. It's far less effort to have someone give me a trim every other month or so.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Well currently not cutting your hair is usually coded female.

But that's only true amongst some people in some places, & it's a very recent development in the West. From the late 60s through the 1990s, lots of guys had shoulder length hair. Some still do. There are lots of well-known men who customarily wear their hair quite long. I don't see men like Eddie Vedder, Jared Leto, Keanu Reeves, Brad Pitt, Dave Grohl, Jason Momoa, Harry Styles, Brian May, Robert Plant, Hozier as "coded female" coz of their long hair.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (9 children)

I don't think all of gender is hard coded. I explicitly do think it is strongly cultural in parts. I'm trying to work out what it is. I've often said I think they are empty flags that are always completed by culture. That means things can drift, become unisex, disappear, swap. But "social gender" remains. Rockstars with long hair are not the end of gender. The hair length pattern remains a mild pattern in most of society.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

That pattern of hair length also correlated with military. Short hair is practical to care for, easier to delouse, and can prevent someone getting a grip on your head.

Long hair can be made ornamental. It requires more upkeep. It’s often impractical but pretty.

Men are stronger and made up historic military with very few exceptions.

Women were property. The pattern you see doesn’t exist in a vacuum. You’re not looking at causative factors for these trends and instead assign them to nature or preference.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

I thought you didn't care about my opinions?

I'd love to chat more but you engage and then tell me not to.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You act like there’s no possible way a person could stop associating gender to objects.

People who say silly things like they’d rather die than wear a dress because it’s women’s clothes are trapped by gender. People who wear skirts because they like skirts is not engaging in any sort of obsession over gender, whether conforming or not. They are normal people with preferences.

It’s possible to live in a way that could be considered gnc without making any active effort to be so. I don’t chop wood because I think it’s masculine, I chop wood because the fireplace is my main heat source.

I don’t wear dresses because I think they are feminine, I wear them because I don’t like how pants feel.

That’s preference. Most people go about their day without ever thinking about whether they are conforming to gender norms or not.

You seem to wildly misunderstand us if you think we view femininity as prison and masculinity as freedom. Both are stupid little boxes that have their own restrictions. The feminine box was created to control women, that’s undeniable. The masculine box exists to discourage men from shaming themselves with femininity.

Gender abolishment isn’t about everyone being masculine, it’s about recognising the obvious fact that the concepts of masculinity and femininity are restrictive bullshit and all people have a mixture of the traits assigned to one or the other.

Man you need to really badly do some reading on what gc actually says and what you insert between the lines and assert as common sense.