GC: Why is there more focus on trans women than trans men?

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[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

Transmen don’t undermine the safety, equality, or rights of men or boys.

Though I agree about the safety part, and much of the equality part, I don't think it's entirely true to say females who identify as the opposite sex don't undermine the rights of men or boys. Lots of males, adolescents especially, don't feel at all comfortable or happy sharing their toilets and locker rooms with girls who are now claiming to be male or non-binary. This is particularly true if the boys have grown up with the girls, but it applies to girls who are strangers as well. Also, lots of little boys are quite sexist, and they want the right to be able to build forts and clubhouses and have social gatherings such as playdates, sleepovers, birthday parties and camping trips where "No Girls Allowed" is the rule.

Finally, now that gay men are being told they're bigots if they don't want to eat or fuck "boi pussy" and the like, a lot of gay guys are starting be pissed off and to push back. Gay guys don't want to have to open up their all-male spaces and sex parties to females who ID as males. They find the whole idea homophobic. See Sheridan Sinclair's articles about this on Substack & in Gay & Lesbian News.

Males have been using opposite sex identity claims to try to encroach upon, perv on, dominate, prey on girls and women, and to roll back our rights, going back to the early 1970s and before. Whereas females claiming to be male or trans is a relatively new phenomenon, one that's only arisen since the 1990s - and in a big way over the past decade or so. Moreover, most of the females who've jumped on the trans train are teens, pre-teens or young adults. There is no huge cohort of female adults declaring themselves to be male in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s the way there is with male adults.

When females who identify as males start demanding admission to college fraternities, men's private clubs, the priesthood and the like, there will be much more push back on this. However, because "transmen" don't pose a physical threat to males, and because they've all gone through female socialization growing up, there will still be differences of kind as well as degree in the efforts they'll make in the future trying to encroach upon male spaces and male rights.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I was talking specifically about rights and the fact that transwomen are males imposing on female specific rights. I agree with everything you said, I just feel like those are all truths that apply to both TW and TM, so I tried to answer why I think there’s more focus on TW here by pointing out the thing that applies to them but not transmen. Female specific rights exist because of male privilege (amongst other things), which makes what transwomen are doing the biggest flex of male privilege I can think of. Whereas with transmen, everything they’re doing (obligatory some) transwomen do, but transmen aren’t undermining rights given to a group of people because their sex made it easier for the opposite sex to oppress and harm them. It doesn’t make the discomfort or sense of invasion that males may feel something to be dismissed, I just think for me, it’s one of the reasons that I think the focus is more on transwomen than transmen.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

We should also keep in mind that some of the biggest & most effective advocates for ending any kind of sex-segregation that is, or can be, of benefit to either sex are females who identify as males: Stephen Whittle and James Morton in the UK, and Chase Strangio in the US.

Moreover, organizations like Stonewall in the UK and the ACLU in the US have chosen to use trans-identified females like Freddie McConnell and Gavin Grimm as stalking horses for the ultimate larger goals of ending female-specific health services, eliminating single-sex provisions and opening up female spaces to males. In the US lawsuits filed & won on behalf of female students like Grimm who want to use the boys & men's toilets and locker rooms in schools are being used as the wedge cases to break the ground & first set legal precedents that in the end will let guys into the girls/women's facilities by the back door.

The ACLU, HRC and other trans lobby organizations realized a while back that the public isn't going to be enthusiastic if the cases they file to get "trans bathroom and locker room access" in US schools are prosecuted on behalf of creepy male teens like Lila Perry. Nobody in their right mind thinks it's suitable for someone like Perry to be changing & showering with the girls in school, or following them into the toilets - not with Lila wearing miniskirts clearly showing Lila's girlish boner bulge.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

female specific rights

What right's do females have that others don't?

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The answer depends on the jurisdiction. But where abortion is legal, the right to obtain one is specific to female people, as are rights that have to do with pregnancy, childbirth, maternity, breastfeeding and female-specific health care services (Pap smears, for example). In sport, the female category traditionally has been regarded as a closed or protected category (that should be) only open to female persons.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That’s... that’s not what female rights means...

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

now that gay men are being told they're bigots if they don't want to eat or fuck "boi pussy" and the like

Just to clarify, "boi pussy" has been a common term for anuses in the gay community way before trans issues took centre stage, as part of emulating misogyny.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (7 children)

Finally, now that gay men are being told they're bigots if they don't want to eat or fuck "boi pussy" and the like, a lot of gay guys are starting be pissed off and to push back. Gay guys don't want to have to open up their all-male spaces and sex parties to females who ID as males. They find the whole idea homophobic. See Sheridan Sinclair's articles about this on Substack & in Gay & Lesbian News.

You're free to refuse sex with anyone for any reason. Most trans people agree with this. However, gay trans men who are attracted to other men have the right to be in gay spaces depending on the space and to the extent they transitioned. A trans man who had top and bottom surgery and passes well can enter a gay sauna.

Males have been using opposite sex identity claims to try to encroach upon, perv on, dominate, prey on girls and women, and to roll back our rights, going back to the early 1970s and before. Whereas females claiming to be male or trans is a relatively new phenomenon, one that's only arisen since the 1990s - and in a big way over the past decade or so. Moreover, most of the females who've jumped on the trans train are teens, pre-teens or young adults. There is no huge cohort of female adults declaring themselves to be male in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s the way there is with male adults.

Trans men existed in the 20s. Alan L. Hart, Amelio Robles Ávila, Willmer ‘Little Ax” Broadnax, and Charley Parkhurst, to name a few.

When females who identify as males start demanding admission to college fraternities, men's private clubs, the priesthood and the like, there will be much more push back on this. However, because "transmen" don't pose a physical threat to males, and because they've all gone through female socialization growing up, there will still be differences of kind as well as degree in the efforts they'll make in the future trying to encroach upon male spaces and male rights.

Gavin Grimm and Drew Adams sued their high schools because they weren't allowed to use the boy's bathroom. Nick H. won 300K after suing his Anoka-Hennepin school district because he was barred from the boy's locker room. Over 150 FTM students were escorted out of the Iowa Capitol because they refused orders to leave the men’s restroom and use gender-neutral bathrooms instead.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Yes, I know that Grimm and Adams - young females with a huge amount of internalized misogyny, homophobia especially against lesbians, and self-hatred - have been the lead litigants in lawsuits seeking to end sex-segregated intimate spaces in schools in the US, and to remove the rights of male adolescent students to bodily privacy and freedom of assembly. And that people like Nick H have succeeded in their suits, though not necessarily coz the other side were convinced of Nick's position but coz in the current political climate the school district at issue made a tactical decision to cave and pay the kid off. Groups like the ACLU & HRC use these young female people as stalking horses and wedges.

But trust me, boys & men - the XY kind - do not want these female people in their spaces, they do not see them as members of their own sex, and they do not respect them. On the contrary, they ridicule them, consider them pathetic losers and much worse. If you want to hear true "transphobia," you should hear what adolescent boys, young men & even older men say about people like Grimm in private.

gay trans men who are attracted to other men have the right to be in gay spaces depending on the space and to the extent they transitioned. A trans man who had top and bottom surgery and passes well can enter a gay sauna.

Yeah, they can go there, but no gay men will want to have sex with them, LOL. And their presence will be resented. A female who removes her breasts doesn't become part male by doing so. Female "bottom surgery" alters female anatomy; but even altered, it's not a convincing facsimile of what they're aiming to replicate.

Even in cases of the most "successful" phalloplasty, what female people end up is equipment that in no way is anything like a real dick and balls. Very few female people who have phalloplasties use them to have sex with others, particularly not with gay men; all females get out of phalloplasty is the ability to pee standing up. The vast majority of females who have other kinds of "bottom surgery" are same-sex attracted, so if they have IRL sex with other people, it's with other female people.

These "transmen" really are not doing themselves or the trans cause any favors by trying to horn in on gay male spaces. The fact that you don't get this suggests that you know very little about sex, and are utterly clueless about the nature of male sexuality and gay male sexuality specifically. Gay males are dick connoiseurs; they know the difference between Spam and foie gras full well and can tell right off the proverbial bat.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, I know that Grimm and Adams - young females with a huge amount of internalized misogyny, homophobia especially against lesbians, and self-hatred

What makes you think they have self-hatred – besides the fact that they transitioned? I have not heard Grimm and Adams say anything negative about gays and lesbians. Also "internalized misogyny" applies to women, not trans men.

But trust me, boys & men - the XY kind - do not want these female people in their spaces, they do not see them as members of their own sex, and they do not respect them. On the contrary, they ridicule them, consider them pathetic losers and much worse. If you want to hear true "transphobia," you should hear what adolescent boys, young men & even older men say about people like Grimm in private.

I will call out that kind of transphobia when I hear it.

Yeah, they can go there, but no gay men will want to have sex with them, LOL. And their presence will be resented. A female who removes her breasts doesn't become part male by doing so. Female "bottom surgery" alters female anatomy; but even altered, it's not a convincing facsimile of what they're aiming to replicate.

Even in cases of the most "successful" phalloplasty, what female people end up is equipment that in no way is anything like a real dick and balls. Very few female people who have phalloplasties use them to have sex with others, particularly not with gay men; all females get out of phalloplasty is the ability to pee standing up. The vast majority of females who have other kinds of "bottom surgery" are same-sex attracted, so if they have IRL sex with other people, it's with other female people.

These "transmen" really are not doing themselves or the trans cause any favors by trying to horn in on gay male spaces. The fact that you don't get this suggests that you know very little about sex, and are utterly clueless about the nature of male sexuality and gay male sexuality specifically. Gay males are dick connoiseurs; they know the difference between Spam and foie gras full well and can tell right off the proverbial bat.

I'm a straight woman, and I would have sex with a passing trans man. Many people are attracted to gender presentation, not birth sex.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm a straight woman, and I would have sex with a passing trans man. Many people are attracted to gender presentation, not birth sex.

Once again, your response shows that your solipsism is off the charts. The fact that you a heterosexual woman would have sex with a "trans man" doesn't mean that most/all/any gay men will be so inclined. Can you really not see how effing heteronormative, homophobic & sexist it is to base your ideas of gay male sexual tastes & behaviors on what you as a heterosexual woman are into?

You do you, GB. But I will double down on my contention that you come across as a person of very limited RL sexual experience who is

utterly clueless about the nature of male sexuality and gay male sexuality specifically.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know that meme with principal skinner saying ‘no..it’s the children who are wrong!’?

It’s never been more applicable than with gb.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 7 fun2 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Once again, your response shows that your solipsism is off the charts. The fact that you a heterosexual woman would have sex with a "trans man" doesn't mean that most/all/any gay men will be so inclined. Can you really not see how effing heteronormative, homophobic & sexist it is to base your ideas of gay male sexual tastes & behaviors on what you as a heterosexual woman are into?

Some cis gay men are in fact into trans men. Some trans men are gay men.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

"internalized misogyny" applies to women, not trans men.

And a whole lifetime of being raised as female and treated with all the double standards that female people are treated with simply...didn't happen? That person has entered an alternate reality just by changing their Twitter bio?

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

A trans man who had top and bottom surgery and passes well can enter a gay sauna.

You do realise that the requirement for transitioning and especially surgery is seen as transphobic by your own community, right? A woman's vulva and clit are now a "front hole" and a "dick" because she's using he/him pronouns.