QT/Trans: Trans women say feminism and women's rights should include ALL women, and this means anyone who identifies as a woman. But 99% of women are cis. Why then do trans women not care about the history and rights of 99% of women?

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[–]BiologyIsReal 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Not the poster, but because pointless distinctions between the sexes such as third person pronouns are needlessly gendered and originate from the need to exclude women from normal life. I also want all cultures to stop pointlessly separating the sexes as well, and I really don't care how much they claim that misogyny is an integral part of their life and heritage.

People literally always make up a stink over ending sexism. Nothing to see here.

Way to completely miss my point... You make it sound like if we were talking about something like child marriage or FGM when, in fact, we were talking about sexed pronouns and words like aunt. You know, something that for most people is NOT a issue in the slightest.

This is not going to be a popular opinion, but sexism and misogyny exists in virtually every culture. Lots of people from developed countries like to see themselves as "progressive" and "more advanced" in social issues than the rest of the world. They can easily point out the sexism and misogyny of other countries, but they are oblivious about their own. It was the "enligthened" and "progressive" western countries who started with the ideas of "sex is a spectrum", "TWAW", and "sex work is work" after all. Yet many of those people have the need to act as white saviours who could solve all the social issues of foreign countries if not were for the "regressive" natives. The implicit idea is that the locals (all of them) are too stupid, incompetent, corrupt, sexist, racist, or whathever to make social progress on their own.

Gendered pronouns are not needed for this. Words like "man" and "woman" are. Moreover, you can tell how unnecessary gendered pronouns are from the fact that English speakers are still perfectly capable of differentiating and speaking of men and women even outside of third person.

Fine, you and u/Genderbender can have fun convincing the rest of English speakers of not using sexed pronouns. Meanwhile, I'll keep speaking Spanish as I always did. I'm not going to start using made-up pronouns, adjectives, nouns and articles just to please some native English speakers, who may or may not know a word in Spanish.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

we were talking about sexed pronouns and words like aunt.

Pronouns do not have sex (in fact, 5 out of 6 personal pronouns don't). "Women" and "men" do.

They can easily point out the sexism and misogyny of other countries, but they are oblivious about their own

The person was literally saying this should apply to languages in general. People constantly criticise the dehumanisation, exclusion, abuse etc. that women put up with in their own culture, and want women to enjoy equal rights everywhere, regardless of culture.

sexism and misogyny exists in virtually every culture.

And yet it was only modern Western countries that have made any real strides in regards to pushing back against it, way beyond any other culture so far. So, miss me with that "cultural relativism" patriarchy apologia. I don't give a damn what repetitive misogynistic crap some group of people has arbitrarily decided is going to be their "heritage" or "tradition", I give a damn about ending the patriarchy.

It was the "enligthened" and "progressive" western countries who started with the ideas of "sex is a spectrum", "TWAW", and "sex work is work" after all.

And according to your cultural relativism, any dumb shit is equally valid as long as a culture forms around it. Yeah, no thanks.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Pronouns do not have sex (in fact, 5 out of 6 personal pronouns don't). "Women" and "men" do.

You know exactly what I meant...

The person was literally saying this should apply to languages in general. People constantly criticise the dehumanisation, exclusion, abuse etc. that women put up with in their own culture, and want women to enjoy equal rights everywhere, regardless of culture.

And yet it was only modern Western countries that have made any real strides in regards to pushing back against it, way beyond any other culture so far. So, miss me with that "cultural relativism" patriarchy apologia. I don't give a damn what repetitive misogynistic crap some group of people has arbitrarily decided is going to be their "heritage" or "tradition", I give a damn about ending the patriarchy.

And according to your cultural relativism, any dumb shit is equally valid as long as a culture forms around it. Yeah, no thanks.

Show me exactly where the f*** I advocated for moral relativism and excused the misogyny of any country. All I say was every culture, included the developed world is guilty of sexism and misogyny. And that is was the so called western countries who came up with "sex is a spectrum" and "sex work is work" and exported it everywhere they could. And I would add its often the developed countries who used their self-perceived "progressism" to justify their many wars. Perfect way to solve all other countries problems, right? Just kill all those foreign bigots! Women and girls included, because sex equality, you know?

If you think having pronouns that indicate the sex of a person (however you want to call them) is on pair with things like FGM or child marriage we're going to agree to absolutely disagree.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

You know exactly what I meant...

Again, pronouns do not have sex. Is there something unclear about that?

Show me exactly where the f*** I advocated for moral relativism and excused the misogyny of any country.

You're whining about not wanting to change shit in Spanish because "wahwah my language, colonialist white people". I don't give a damn - misogyny is misogyny. Culture is made up bullshit that has always failed women. It gets no respect from me.

All I say was every culture, included the developed world is guilty of sexism and misogyny.

Every culture is misogynistic. The vast majority do not attempt to address this. Feminists criticising other cultures are VERY aware of sexism in their own culture. They also do not have to live in a country or speak its language to use their brains and logical thinking and recognise when misogynistic double standards are in place.

And that is was the so called western countries who came up with "sex is a spectrum" and "sex work is work" and exported it everywhere they could.

So? We are pushing back against that just as we do against any other form of misogyny.

If you think having pronouns that indicate the sex of a person (however you want to call them) is on pair with things like FGM or child marriage we're going to agree to absolutely disagree.

Very feminist to claim that anything short of FMG and child marriage simply doesn't count as misogyny.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You're whining about not wanting to change shit in Spanish because "wahwah my language, colonialist white people".

I'm just a bystander in this particular exchange, but I gotta say that this jumped out at me. Where did u/BiologyIsReal say anything approaching "wahwah my language, colonialist white people"?

Also, isn't Spanish the language that originated in the home country of a whole lot of colonialist white people? Spain, after all, was the country that kicked off the invasion of the "New World," and which ended up colonizing much of the Americas.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is right. There has been a discussion in Spanish speaking coutries for a while about sexism in the language. But, I think that is something that native speakers should decide, that is all.

By the way, I'm white too, as my skin is white, though wheter Americans would consider someone from Latin America like myself as white I don't know.

[–]adungitit 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

By arguing that "white people" criticising misogynistic norms in other cultures and languages are doing so for colonialist purposes.

And yes, the irony of the colonialist history of Spain kinda flew over their head, likely because they're speaking from a Latin American perspective.

[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I know perfectly well that pronouns don't have a sex. I am not a savage idiot, you know?

And how the actual f*** having pronouns that indicate the sex of someone is sexist or misogynist?!!!!!

It's very unfortunate for me that I can't say all I'm thinking right now about you misconstructing everything I said while being a mod. So, bye.

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

And how the actual f*** having pronouns that indicate the sex of someone is sexist or misogynist?!!!!!

It serves literally no purpose than to needlessly separate the language that the sexes can use, and this is always in favour of men. These languages are always androcentric, and the indoctrination that men are human and women are subhuman starts early.