All: Why do a lot of trans people insist that being non binary or trans has nothing to to with stereotyoes, and then suddenly it really is about stereotypes?

submitted by questioningtw from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (51 children)

GC doesn't support the misogyny that passes for male gender nonconformity because femininity is a patriarchal construct created to oppress women. Unsurprisingly, most gender nonconforming men just have a fetish for imitating the misogynistic caricatures and the patriarchal hierarchies that their worldview revolves around. Remove their male supremacist ideology, and you lose the motivation to be "gender nonconforming"

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

This is a gotcha position for all gnc men. The only forms of male gnc behaviour are forms that gnc women find acceptable for gnc women. A logic trap that even people outside of the debate recognise.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

You're saying something is a logic trap without actually explaining why. Can you actually explain or is this going to end as usual at just saying things and praying they're true by virtue of posting them?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

What male gender non conformity is acceptable to you?

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

So, you have no intention of actually rationalising your claim as usual? I guess it's my fault for expecting the programming to glitch when it's been working so well.

Ok, maybe you'll want to answer a different question: why do you and QT make claims you know are full of hot air when you know you'll have to do this humiliating little dance around it every time and how do you keep your dignity from intervening?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

My question was meant to progress the debate. To find out what you thought.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

If you say something, and you are asked to rationalise it, awkwardly derailing and avoiding the questions because you know you're full of hot air is not "progressing the debate". Debate cannot be had if one side knows they have no argument and instead expends all their efforts into trying to avert attention from the fact that they have no argument, hoping that this will somehow make it seem like they're not actually wrong just because they ignore and disengage from what proves them wrong.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

To be honest you are the person here I find the most difficult to debate.

It comes across as a list of accusations.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

If you read this person's other posts, you'll know their perception of reality is heavily laced with self-victimisation and sociological inferences that "femininty" and "masculinity" are created by the patriarchy, the problem with that is those concepts are made to describe a series of patterns exhibited by society at the time (e.g most girls playing with dolls, not many boys play with dolls = dolls are a girl thing) and these patterns are separated into categories "feminine" and "masculine" in the observer's respective culture. It doesn't matter if it's because women are oppressed or not (analysis of this would be a separate topic, this is about observing society's patterns and behaviours in groups), the pattern is going to be there and observed as such and as society changes, what is feminine or masculine also changes, in other words, femininty and masculinity is dynamic. "Gender" cannot be "removed", it's just a dynamic category. The person you are arguing with is also sexist towards women, the group of women it's trying to support the rights of.

I'm at this point ready to say this person is a troll or some nutter who thinks that it has won an argument when a person stops posting. His logic has a lot more holes than a badly written plot

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (9 children)

the pattern is going to be there and observed as such and as society changes, what is feminine or masculine also changes, in other words, femininty and masculinity is dynamic. "Gender" cannot be "removed", it's just a dynamic category.

I agree or at least I think I do.

Masculine and feminine is dynamic to a degree.

However they are always going to emerge, because humans have a desire to gender things. Also in that sense gender non conformity is cross conformity.

Also the genders can't be so dynamic that they contradict physical reality.

But there can be behavioural traits as well as physical traits.

For instance criminality seems to have a universal higher rate among men.

I'm at this point ready to say this person is a troll or some nutter who thinks that it has won an argument when a person stops posting. His logic has a lot more holes than a badly written plot

Well they do claim to be a woman and I believe them. I do think they might be traumatized person. But their arguments are consistent with some in gc. But then I think gc is more than one group but also that the different gc positions ought to be formalised to a degree.

Both "gc" and "qt" have different schools of thought.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Debate is not "I'll vomit bullshit and then desperately try distract from said bullshit". That's either trolling or being an idiot, both of which cannot fascilitate debate. You are repeatedly given chances to explain yourself, and you use them to try and derail, worm your way out what you were saying, disappear, and then parrot the exact same stupidity elsewhere. That is not debate. Debate cannot be had if a person knows they're full of it and are still continuing to parrot the same broken nonsense because they think that if they just say it enough times, they can fool themselves and others into thinking it's true and that will make their bruised ego feel better. If you don't like being accused of bad faith, then start rationalising what you're saying, stop derailing, stop avoiding uncomfortable questions, learn to use your brain when making statements instead of just vomiting out the first thing that comes to mind and whining that you're victimised because you're full of shit.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (31 children)

Your claim is femininity is bad and a construction of the patriarchy.

I don't think that's how the majority of women view it. You disagree.

I don't see who you can have "good gender non conforming males" if you condemn femininity.

I'd also add the majority of women are attracted to masculinity.

Doesn't seem much point in deny these things.