All: Why do a lot of trans people insist that being non binary or trans has nothing to to with stereotyoes, and then suddenly it really is about stereotypes?

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[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (9 children)

the pattern is going to be there and observed as such and as society changes, what is feminine or masculine also changes, in other words, femininty and masculinity is dynamic. "Gender" cannot be "removed", it's just a dynamic category.

I agree or at least I think I do.

Masculine and feminine is dynamic to a degree.

However they are always going to emerge, because humans have a desire to gender things. Also in that sense gender non conformity is cross conformity.

Also the genders can't be so dynamic that they contradict physical reality.

But there can be behavioural traits as well as physical traits.

For instance criminality seems to have a universal higher rate among men.

I'm at this point ready to say this person is a troll or some nutter who thinks that it has won an argument when a person stops posting. His logic has a lot more holes than a badly written plot

Well they do claim to be a woman and I believe them. I do think they might be traumatized person. But their arguments are consistent with some in gc. But then I think gc is more than one group but also that the different gc positions ought to be formalised to a degree.

Both "gc" and "qt" have different schools of thought.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Males are biologically stronger, they won the biological arms race before people started developing complex civilisations, the culture to commit what we would consider to be crimes today, was fostered and carried over and exhibited in those civilisations, of course there's going to be some level of consistency. We can also say that maybe males have more of a biological impulsive need to be assholes and to win Darwin Awards, but honestly, that seems more nurture than nature. We humans don't actually have the need to gender, we just happen to observe and noticed a pattern and sorted that information.

I wouldn't call it "cross conformity", originally we used "non-conformity" to describe if we don't match our respective gender's stereotype and by extension, how society percieves the individual. It makes zero sense to create another terminology to basically say "you share features of something in another category", much similar to non-binary and agender existing as a list of valid genders.

We can't change our genders (e.g. woman, man), but our gender stereotypes can be changed (how we see women and men).

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

I wouldn't call it "cross conformity", originally we used "non-conformity" to describe if we don't match our respect gender's stereotype and by extension, how society percieves the individual. It makes zero sense to create another terminology to basically say "you share features of something in another category", much similar to non-binary and agender existing as a list of valid genders.

Well sure. But sometimes gc can be rather partisan on gender non conformity.

It can deny female non conformity is aligning with masculinity.

It can say female non conformity is good and male non conformity is bad. Indeed male conformity is often everything gc feminists are wanting to get away from.

But gender non conformity always selects gender norms.

If everyone was gender non conforming we would still have gender norms. Gender would not be abolished.

If half of the population of both sexes were gnc that would be more like it. Or if an equal portion were androgynous.

But we still run into physical elements that are mixed into "gender."

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I don't know where you get the whole "male non conformity is bad.", but GC just hate that the non-conformity is being used as the basis for transition and have stated a couple of times that transwomen explanations are not just stupid, but also deluded, sexist and is also pseudoscience. The fact the trans movement is using the whole "I like this typical gender stereotype hobby" or "I act like this particular gender stereotype" destroys one of the aims of the feminist movement, to make society see past the person's sex and to give them a chance and treat them with equality and equity.

But gender non conformity always selects gender norms.

Gender norms is whatever that is observed in the society and established by what the majority of target study groups profile (e.g. majority of females sew and many of them like sewing, not many males sew and a lot don't like sewing) Gender non-conformity is to describe a person's diversion fron the gender stereotypical profile of observed behaviours in their respective local culture. It does not "select", it does not have a will of its own, for it is a concept and a word a person would use to describe someone in relation to their own society. It is as dynamic as gender-norms and is used to communicate what the user thinks and want to say.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (5 children)

I don't know where you get the whole "male non conformity is bad.",

What male non conformity does gc generally like? There are always large sections of gc who don't like the reality of male gnc behaviour.

Good male gnc ends up being either something very mildly gnc or a "magical gnc super state" that exists virtually after all the actual forms of it are rejected.

but GC just hate that the non-conformity is being used as the basis for transition and have stated a couple of times that transwomen explanations are not just stupid, but also deluded, sexist and is also pseudoscience. The fact the trans movement is using the whole "I like this typical gender stereotype hobby" or "I act like this particular gender stereotype" destroys one of the aims of the feminist movement, to make society see past the person's sex and to give them a chance and treat them with equality and equity.

Well sure I get the idea. But it that still doesn't get around the gnc issue. There isn't actually something being other than masculinity or femininity. It's a binary and spectrum at best.

Gender norms is whatever that is observed in the society and established by what the majority of target study groups profile (e.g. majority of females sew and many of them like sewing, not many males sew and a lot don't like sewing) Gender non-conformity is to describe a person's diversion fron the gender stereotypical profile of observed behaviours in their respective local culture. It does not "select", it does not have a will of its own, for it is a concept and a word a person would use to describe someone in relation to their own society. It is as dynamic as gender-norms and is used to communicate what the user thinks and want to say.

Right it's dynamic and emergent. Almost like people naturally want to do "gender." It doesn't go away.

Aren't gnc people doing "gender" as well? The more gnc they are the more they are doing "gender."

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What male non conformity does gc generally like? There are always large sections of gc who don't like the reality of male gnc behaviour.

You're going to have to show me this, because from what I've seen they care more about deluded insecure creepy males then a bunch of non-deluded ones who are feminine cross-dressers who like to infiltrate women only spaces and can see through the TRA bullshit. I've read a lot of their reddit pages and I have been on their saidit from the very start. I interact with fellow GC there. I don't agree nor disagree that there're GC who hate feminine males, but I have yet to see a lot or any posts that reflects the attitudes GC as a whole, have about feminine males. I haven't seen a single post where someone who has held an account and have been a regular GC visitor who has expressed this type of sentiment there before. GC target males who try to make everyone else accept their delusions, penalise them for not using their pronoun choice of the day (because no one cares and they can see it's a male), request or demand special treatment and want to invade female spaces. Cross-dressers don't do any of that, in case you're wondering and if they did, they're not cross-dressing, they're trying to "be a woman". Speaking of which, if you're going to do performative work as some gender stereotype at the workplace, and it's not part of your job and you're using that to invade sex specific spaces you're normally prohibited from entering, then you're a creep and you deserve to be fired. If you're just cross-dressing in work appropriate attire, follow the rules and don't ask for special treatment, no one cares. I'm very curious about your claim.

At most, I have seen a lot that just blatantly hate the male race in general.

Well sure I get the idea. But it that still doesn't get around the gnc issue. There isn't actually something being masculinity or femininity. It's a binary and spectrum at best.

Right it's dynamic and emergent. Almost like people naturally want to do "gender." It doesn't go away. Aren't gnc people doing "gender" as well? The more gnc they are the more they are doing "gender."

You seem to be mixing up "gender" with "gender stereotype". "Gender" is either of the two sexes (male and female) and was used as an alternative to "sex" (as that can reference sexual intercourse), "gender stereotype" as I've said before, it is just something observed in a group population and in the context about gender non-conformity, to identify and communicate a diversion from the stereotype. GNC people aren't doing "gender", "gender" is not performative, it's just "gender". GNC aren't "performing" anything, they just happen to not align with many of their own gender's stereotypes and care very little about gender stereotypes. What is "performative" are drag performances, deliberate, exaggeration of gender stereotypes performed for entertainment by the artist. You can say people are living up to their respective stereotypes of their OWN gender, there's no governing body to establish this, but from what I gather as a rule is if you don't act the same, dress the same as your respective gender stereotype, you're not conforming to the stereotype and therefore would be more accurately described as non-conforming.

Edit: Wording

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 3 insightful - 6 fun3 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

You're going to have to show me this,

From the GenderCritical sticky.

Crossdressers/Drag Queens: Non-Transgender men who dress up as stereotypical women for entertainment or erotic purposes. GC are often critical towards this group because while touted as progressive they often use dehumanizing and negative stereotypes of women (Womanface).

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/55iq/the_peakening_read_this_if_you_are_new_to_gender/

I wish the old debate sub hadn't been banned because there was plenty more chat there.

But really it's not difficult to find.

I asked them what they thought of /r/crossdressing and the disapproved of it.

It's not all about the trans identifying people.

The rejection of crossdressers, drag and femininity in men by sections of feminists was there before the modern trans politics was there.

Meghan Murphy was complaining about Harry Styles in a dress only recently.

http://web.archive.org/web/20201208221302/https://www.feministcurrent.com/2020/12/08/a-man-in-a-dress-is-not-inspiring-he-is-simply-a-man-in-a-dress/

Sure I agree with Murphy on the problem of Yanniv.

But as a crossdresser I'm going to defend crossdressing and crossdressers.

You're going to have to show me this, because from what I've seen they care more about deluded insecure creepy males then a bunch of non-deluded ones who are feminine cross-dressers who like to infiltrate women only spaces and can see through the TRA bullshit. I've read a lot of their reddit pages and I have been on their saidit from the very start. I interact with fellow GC there. I don't agree nor disagree that there're GC who hate feminine males,

You mean there is a possibility that a good chunk of gc hate femininity in men?

This means crossdressers are fetishists, drag queens are mocking and other things can be called appropriation.

Here's a question is masculinity and femininity sexual? Is it deeply connected to sexuality of people?

If sexuality is gendered what does gender non conforming sexuality look like?

but I have yet to see a lot or any posts that reflects the attitudes GC as a whole, have about feminine males. I haven't seen a single post where someone who has held an account and have been a regular GC visitor who has expressed this type of sentiment there before. GC target males who try to make everyone else accept their delusions, penalise them for not using their pronoun choice of the day (because no one cares and they can see it's a male), request or demand special treatment and want to invade female spaces.

It's pointless to deny crossdressers are connected to transwomen and the trans arena.

It's like it's pointless to deny the overlap between dyke identities and trans men. People from both communities exist with the trans community. There is travel.

I can see what gc has against crossdressing, any kind, from it's position.

But to me the agenda "lets abolish gender" doesn't work.

Complaining about feminine stereotypes whilst embodying masculine stereotypes isn't a great place to argue from.

At most, I have seen a lot that just blatantly hate the male race in general.

There is an amount of that.

This is Sheila Jefferys area. Do you see here as a significant gender critical.

Do you need more links?

You seem to be mixing up "gender" with "gender stereotype".

Well this is some of the fundamentals.

We, on all sides, in English, tend to mix up what we mean when we say gender. What it means, for everyone, depends on the context.

"Gender" is either of the two sexes (male and female) and was used as an alternative to "sex" (as that can reference sexual intercourse), "gender stereotype" as I've said before, it is just something observed in a group population and in the context about gender non-conformity, to identify and communicate a diversion from the stereotype.

Though stereotype is a pejorative word implying it's something people should not be.

Most people are conforming. By this way of thinking that's wrong. Stereotypes are wrong.

I guess this takes us to the idea of abolishing gender. But what does that mean?

GNC people aren't doing "gender", "gender" is not performative,

How? How have they escaped gender?

it's just "gender". GNC aren't "performing" anything, they just happen to not alignwith many of their own gender's stereotypes and care very little about gender stereotypes.

They have not escaped gender norms.

What is "performative" are drag performances, deliberate, exaggeration of gender stereotypes performed for entertainment by the artist.

So is a butch biker woman a deliberate exaggeration norms?

You can say people are living up to their respective stereotypes of their OWN gender, there's no governing body to establish this, but from what I gather as a rule is if you don't act the same, dress the same as your respective gender stereotype, you're not conforming to the stereotype and therefore would be more accurately described as non-conforming.

But no one, outside radical feminism, thinks they have escaped gender norms. Most people thinking they are doing a version of masculinity.

For most people that is fine. But it's not beyond gender.

By this reasoning why shouldn't everyone be gender non conforming like some gender critical women are.

Including men, what would that look like? Masculine men.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/55iq/the_peakening_read_this_if_you_are_new_to_gender/

I wish the old debate sub hadn't been banned because there was plenty more chat there.

But really it's not difficult to find.

I asked them what they thought of /r/crossdressing and the disapproved of it.

It's not all about the trans identifying people.

The rejection of crossdressers, drag and femininity in men by sections of feminists was there before the modern trans politics was there.

Meghan Murphy was complaining about Harry Styles in a dress only recently

I assume the mods hate cross dressers and the lack of complaints is from people not caring, but if that's your only evidence, that's friggin weak. About what they think about cross dresser sub? I'm going to have to see that for myself. Much like many people of many different ideologies you're going to get many within the same group disagree with each other, but from what I've seen tgey don't hate feminine men, but really trans, only a rare few expressed haye for drag. You're original claim was hating "gnc men", that's pretty general, cross dressing is specific. Males can be feminine without cross dressing (look up Kai Decadence)

We, on all sides, in English, tend to mix up what we mean when we say gender. What it means, for everyone, depends on the context.

Why do you think I'm being specific? It's to ensure that you get your facts straight and you know what I'm talking about in the correct context. It's to reduce ambiguities.

You mean there is a possibility that a good chunk of gc hate femininity in men?

Don't put words in my mouth, I was not stating an opinion, I was stating my absent stance on the subject, I can't have a black and white opinion on something that is almost never brought up on the thread and is rarely conveyed in the comment sections overall.

How? How have they escaped gender?

Read what is "gender" and what is "gender stereotype". I never claimed anyone escaped "gender", that's you putting words in my mouth again.

I said this before, many people just don't live up to "gender stereotypes".

Though stereotype is a pejorative word implying it's something people should be.

Correction: implying it's something people THINK people should be.

So is a butch biker woman a deliberate exaggeration norms?

I don't speak for hypothetical lesbians, I speak for myself and other people like me, we just do whatever we want, we don't actually think about "oh I want to look more like a male", no we think "I want to look cool, not frilly or graceful". You seem to be mixing up personality for social statements. Do you cross dress to try to perform woman? Do you cross dress just to "feel" feminine? Or do you just do it because it's fun? Depending on your answer, you're either doing it because you just like that kind of fashion or because it's you're trying to be a woman. They're not mutually exclusive but if you are doing it at any level just to resemble whatever society consider's feminine and change your behaviour once you make yourself look whatever society's version of a feminine woman, then you're a deliberate exaggeration of gender stereotypes.

But no one, outside radical feminism, thinks they have escaped gender norms.

Jesus why do you keep using the word "escape"? it's like you feel or you think everyone else feels it's a prison, it's not, it's just a concept defined by observations of the observer.

radical feminism, thinks they have escaped gender norms. Most people thinking they are doing a version of masculinity.

Keyword, "radical" feminism, not everyone is a radical feminist there, I'm not a radical feminist so I don't know what most of their views are aside from being anti-porn, anti-prostitution and anti-trans.

Including men, what would that look like? Masculine men.

At this point, you seem to not understand what is gender non-conforming if you had to ask me that and in that way.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Why do you think I'm being specific? It's to ensure that you get your facts straight and you know what I'm talking about in the correct context. It's to reduce ambiguities.

No I completely agree. It matters to be specific on what we mean when we say gender.

When someone says they are gender critical, I think it's reasonable to assume that they mean they are opposed to gender norms, gender stereotypes, gendered expectation in general, from a feminist or radical feminist position.

Read what is "gender" and what is "gender stereotype". I never claimed anyone escaped "gender", that's you putting words in my mouth again.

I said this before, many people just don't live up to "gender stereotypes".

My problem is "not living up to stereotypes" is ambiguous. It's a denial rather a description of that they're doing.

Another lurking problem here is "neutrality" and "masculinity" are often synonymous.

This happens for complicated reasons. But there is a convergence of traditional societies being patriarchal and the femininity movement wanting women to take masculine roles.

After the emancipation movements it becomes more complicated to say what "not living up to stereotypes" means.

I don't speak for hypothetical lesbians, I speak for myself and other people like me, we just do whatever we want,

But that's always a complicated question.

Conforming people say the same. They can't all be wrong.

What do we mean when we say "we just want to do whatever." We are always acting within a culture.

we don't actually think about "oh I want to look more like a male", no we think "I want to look cool, not frilly or graceful".

But clearly people do act on those things. There clearly are patterns.

You seem to be mixing up personality for social statements.

Is this the claim masculinity and femininity are personalities?

If the personalities roughly match sexes does that mean "gender" is real. Forget about trans people.

Do you cross dress to try to perform woman? Do you cross dress just to "feel" feminine? Or do you just do it because it's fun?

Below conscious choice. Identity and eroticism. It feels like the right thing to do despite society. I see the expressions of femininity I think yes.

As illogical as it is. I can see all the issues with it. I have to explain it to myself and how it fits the world.

What are others drawn to expressions of gender?

Depending on your answer, you're either doing it because you just like that kind of fashion or because it's you're trying to be a woman.

The fashion argument I find unconvincing because that's something else.

They're not mutually exclusive but if you are doing it at any level just to resemble whatever society consider's feminine and change your behaviour once you make yourself look whatever society's version of a feminine woman, then you're a deliberate exaggeration of gender stereotypes.

Why?

I'm not saying I'm a woman. What's wrong with a man doing femininity? How hard does a man have to guard their masculinity?

Are you saying the same to women?

"If you wear men's clothes you better not be acting in a deliberately masculine way?"

What is the obsession with how other's are behaving regard to gender?

Keyword, "radical" feminism, not everyone is a radical feminist there, I'm not a radical feminist so I don't know what most of their views are aside from being anti-porn, anti-prostitution and anti-trans.

Sure I can see not everyone is radical feminist. Some are more conservative and anti trans. The category "gender critical" has come to mean that. The movement is hazy.

At this point, you seem to not understand what is gender non-conforming if you had to ask me that and in that way.

Sure. Well lets get back to basics. What do you think it means?

Can a person be gender non conforming with conforming to forms of the opposite sex?

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is this the claim masculinity and femininity are personalities?

You definitely need to go back to read some points that were established.

Sure. Well lets get back to basics. What do you think it means?

It's not about what I think it means, it's the objective definition. Again, read back to my previous points about gender and gender stereotypes for those definitions. I've parroted the same point before. Your questions come from the fact you clearly you don't know difference between "gender" and "gender stereotypes". I explained it to you multiple times already and at this point you just want to go around in circles.