All: Why do a lot of trans people insist that being non binary or trans has nothing to to with stereotyoes, and then suddenly it really is about stereotypes?

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[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (50 children)

This is a gotcha position for all gnc men. The only forms of male gnc behaviour are forms that gnc women find acceptable for gnc women. A logic trap that even people outside of the debate recognise.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (49 children)

You're saying something is a logic trap without actually explaining why. Can you actually explain or is this going to end as usual at just saying things and praying they're true by virtue of posting them?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (48 children)

What male gender non conformity is acceptable to you?

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (47 children)

So, you have no intention of actually rationalising your claim as usual? I guess it's my fault for expecting the programming to glitch when it's been working so well.

Ok, maybe you'll want to answer a different question: why do you and QT make claims you know are full of hot air when you know you'll have to do this humiliating little dance around it every time and how do you keep your dignity from intervening?

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (46 children)

My question was meant to progress the debate. To find out what you thought.

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (45 children)

If you say something, and you are asked to rationalise it, awkwardly derailing and avoiding the questions because you know you're full of hot air is not "progressing the debate". Debate cannot be had if one side knows they have no argument and instead expends all their efforts into trying to avert attention from the fact that they have no argument, hoping that this will somehow make it seem like they're not actually wrong just because they ignore and disengage from what proves them wrong.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (44 children)

To be honest you are the person here I find the most difficult to debate.

It comes across as a list of accusations.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (10 children)

If you read this person's other posts, you'll know their perception of reality is heavily laced with self-victimisation and sociological inferences that "femininty" and "masculinity" are created by the patriarchy, the problem with that is those concepts are made to describe a series of patterns exhibited by society at the time (e.g most girls playing with dolls, not many boys play with dolls = dolls are a girl thing) and these patterns are separated into categories "feminine" and "masculine" in the observer's respective culture. It doesn't matter if it's because women are oppressed or not (analysis of this would be a separate topic, this is about observing society's patterns and behaviours in groups), the pattern is going to be there and observed as such and as society changes, what is feminine or masculine also changes, in other words, femininty and masculinity is dynamic. "Gender" cannot be "removed", it's just a dynamic category. The person you are arguing with is also sexist towards women, the group of women it's trying to support the rights of.

I'm at this point ready to say this person is a troll or some nutter who thinks that it has won an argument when a person stops posting. His logic has a lot more holes than a badly written plot

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 2 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 6 fun -  (9 children)

the pattern is going to be there and observed as such and as society changes, what is feminine or masculine also changes, in other words, femininty and masculinity is dynamic. "Gender" cannot be "removed", it's just a dynamic category.

I agree or at least I think I do.

Masculine and feminine is dynamic to a degree.

However they are always going to emerge, because humans have a desire to gender things. Also in that sense gender non conformity is cross conformity.

Also the genders can't be so dynamic that they contradict physical reality.

But there can be behavioural traits as well as physical traits.

For instance criminality seems to have a universal higher rate among men.

I'm at this point ready to say this person is a troll or some nutter who thinks that it has won an argument when a person stops posting. His logic has a lot more holes than a badly written plot

Well they do claim to be a woman and I believe them. I do think they might be traumatized person. But their arguments are consistent with some in gc. But then I think gc is more than one group but also that the different gc positions ought to be formalised to a degree.

Both "gc" and "qt" have different schools of thought.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Males are biologically stronger, they won the biological arms race before people started developing complex civilisations, the culture to commit what we would consider to be crimes today, was fostered and carried over and exhibited in those civilisations, of course there's going to be some level of consistency. We can also say that maybe males have more of a biological impulsive need to be assholes and to win Darwin Awards, but honestly, that seems more nurture than nature. We humans don't actually have the need to gender, we just happen to observe and noticed a pattern and sorted that information.

I wouldn't call it "cross conformity", originally we used "non-conformity" to describe if we don't match our respective gender's stereotype and by extension, how society percieves the individual. It makes zero sense to create another terminology to basically say "you share features of something in another category", much similar to non-binary and agender existing as a list of valid genders.

We can't change our genders (e.g. woman, man), but our gender stereotypes can be changed (how we see women and men).

[–]adungitit 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (32 children)

Debate is not "I'll vomit bullshit and then desperately try distract from said bullshit". That's either trolling or being an idiot, both of which cannot fascilitate debate. You are repeatedly given chances to explain yourself, and you use them to try and derail, worm your way out what you were saying, disappear, and then parrot the exact same stupidity elsewhere. That is not debate. Debate cannot be had if a person knows they're full of it and are still continuing to parrot the same broken nonsense because they think that if they just say it enough times, they can fool themselves and others into thinking it's true and that will make their bruised ego feel better. If you don't like being accused of bad faith, then start rationalising what you're saying, stop derailing, stop avoiding uncomfortable questions, learn to use your brain when making statements instead of just vomiting out the first thing that comes to mind and whining that you're victimised because you're full of shit.

[–]theory_of_thisan actual straight crossdresser 4 insightful - 6 fun4 insightful - 5 fun5 insightful - 6 fun -  (31 children)

Your claim is femininity is bad and a construction of the patriarchy.

I don't think that's how the majority of women view it. You disagree.

I don't see who you can have "good gender non conforming males" if you condemn femininity.

I'd also add the majority of women are attracted to masculinity.

Doesn't seem much point in deny these things.

[–]adungitit 7 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 7 fun -  (20 children)

Wow, you actually said something instead of pathetically trying to worm out of your own words. Still didn't actually clarify what you were supposed to, but hey, we're getting there. Actually probably not. I doubt you'll be able to go beyond repeating "buh dick says girls like Chads".

Your claim is femininity is bad and a construction of the patriarchy.

It...objectively is? Women are not born in high heels and dresses. Hell, those things weren't even associated with women until relatively recently. More and more women are wearing "masculine" clothing, more and more are taking on "masculine" responsibilities that have always been denied to them. Men are whining about this the same as always and jerking each other off about how incapable women are and how much happier they were or would be back by their masters' feet, and women are trying to coddle their egos by promising that they can still be sexy for them even if they're "empowered". This has been happening even before women could vote.

Femininity and masculinity are objectively damaging for women. You can lie through your teeth that they're not, but both women's experiences and statistics speak for themselves.

I don't think that's how the majority of women view it.

Women trying to haggle with the patriarchy and compromise with the dominant class for their acceptance has always been the case, as well as men using normalised oppression of women as evidence that women like being oppressed. Women being groomed and brainwashed to accept their oppression is nothing new. Women used to accept they don't need to vote, or have careers, or go outside, or be educated, or deserve sexual satisfaction and that they deserve to be beaten and owned by their husbands. All of these have been used by men to argue that women are happy in their oppression.

I'd also add the majority of women are attracted to masculinity.

Let me guess, because romance novels? Those are getting pushed out by things like fanfics which show a variety that would never be apparent just from the stuff published based on what women should be into. Moreover, a lot of women are into "feminine" pop stars and gay men to the point of it being a joke. Women not enjoying misogynistic sex, being objectified and men pestering them to do things for male benefit is seen as an integral part of heterosexual relationships and while men indeed love it and as always insist that women do, too (with ofc infinite orgasms that they're giving them in this arrangement because they're just so good like that), most women have a different story to tell. The embarrassingly low rates of orgasm for straight (and bi) women, as well as widespread traumatic experiences tells a different story from the submissive-housewife-happy-in-her-place fairy tale. Men proclaim these as misandrist overreactions and/or just ignore them no matter how normal it is to hear them, and apply survivorship bias to any woman who's proudly stockhold-syndrome'd herself into liking the misogynistic androcentric status quo that is given to women as the only option, and avoid the masses of unhappy, neglected, anxious and traumatised women who are sick of male bullshit. This sort of wilful ignorance and lying through their teeth that men engage in for the sake of prettying up the status quo is different from women, who, even when they say things that men want them to say, are usually still either aware of or suffer from the negative impacts of the things that they're pretending to be okay with for the sake of patriarchal approval.

I don't see who you can have "good gender non conforming males" if you condemn femininity.

Most gender nonconforming male people are fetishists. They are "nonconforming" because their dicks get hard from taking on the role of inferior subhuman women. This is why misogyny is paradoxically (but actually not when you think about it) still the norm among them just like with conforming men. There is no difference between the two except what specific fetish they're jerking to (which they picked up from other men in the first place). Men do not perceive women as human beings, they perceive them as caricatures, dolls created for their entertainment, so to men, gender nonconformity has nothing to do with freeing oneself from the gender hierarchy from which they still derive their entire worldview from, and everything to do with donning a patriarchal costume, a male idea of a woman and all the inferiority contained in it. This is in stark contrast with how women do nonconformity and relate to men.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Gender nonconformity does not mean "following femininity stereotypes". It means not following masculinity stereotypes.