QT: Where are the “trans men” athletes winning against men?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

The effects of gonadal hormones have been studied much more than sex chromosome effects, for several reasons. The theory of sexual differentiation emerging from research in the 20th century pointed almost exclusively to gonadal hormones as the proximate sex-biasing factors, so any program of research on sex differences focused first on hormones. This focus was usually rewarded, because most sex differences were found to be influenced by sex hormones. The resulting large literature on sex hormone effects gives the impression that hormones dominate as the causes of sex differences. That inference may be true, but has not been tested rigorously...

Especially since 1990, there has been increasing realization that sex differences occur throughout the body. Tissues not specialized for reproduction, including non-reproductive areas of the brain, function differently in females and males, and are differentially affected by disease in the two sexes (US National Institute of Medicine Committee on Understanding the Biology of Sex and Gender Disorders, 2001). In some cases, sex differences in disease can be dramatic...

Which is illustrated by the dramatically different ways COVID and the vaccines for it affect the two sexes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5369239/#R68

Some more passages snipped from the same paper that are relevant:

Before 1980, investigators in this field had predominantly studied the most obvious phenotypic sex differences, in the gonads, external and internal genitalia, and behavior (Arnold, 2002). These investigators viewed themselves largely as reproductive biologists and psychologists, because of the function of the tissues or behaviors they studied. Earlier in the 20th century, investigators had asked the fundamental question whether phenotypic sex differences were dictated by the sex chromosomes or by gonadal secretions. For the birds and mammals, the answer was that sexual development outside the gonads was controlled by gonadal hormones. Experiments showed that changing the gonadal hormones could profoundly change the sexual phenotype of reproductive tissues other than the gonads. For example, it was possible to give male hormones to genetic (XX) females to make the genitals or behavior similar to that of a male, or to take male hormones away from genetic (XY) males to make their genitals and behavior like that of females (Jost, 1947)...

Several developments have contributed to a revision of the old dogma. One is that the revolution in molecular genetics has given us a much better understanding of the genes on the sex chromosomes, their evolution, and function (Deng et al., 2014; Graves, 2006; Lahn and Page, 1997; Skaletsky et al., 2003). This new knowledge shows that the inherent inequality of X and Y genetic material in the two sexes has effects throughout the body, not just on the gonads. A second major influence has been that various experimental findings have uncovered cases in which the old theory was inadequate...

At the same time as these developments, the study of sex differences was expanding beyond tissues related to reproduction.

For example, dramatic differences have been found in the ways the kidneys, hearts and respiratory systems function in male and female humans and other animals.

In the past, scientists studied male physiology and applied findings to women, so studies such as the new USC research underscore the importance of biological differences.“Profound differences distinguish the male and female kidney,” McMahon said. “The kidney is the body’s regulator of fluid balance, and since women bear offspring, there are likely critical differences required in the mother for the benefit of both mother and offspring.”

The findings can benefit human health by improving an understanding of genetic programs that may influence drug trials, drug toxicity and cellular reprogramming, he said.

https://www.technologynetworks.com/cell-science/news/stem-cell-scientists-reveal-key-differences-in-male-and-female-kidneys-326828

Over a period of 10 years, the weight of the heart’s main pumping chamber — the left ventricle — increased by an average of 8 grams in men and decreased by 1.6 grams in women. The heart’s filling capacity — marked by the amount of blood the left ventricle can holds between heartbeats — declined in both sexes but more precipitously so in women, by about 13 milliliters, compared with just under 10 milliliters in men. The differences in size, volume and pumping ability occurred independently of other risk factors known to affect heart muscle size and performance, including body weight, blood pressure, cholesterol levels, exercise levels and smoking.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/male_and_female_hearts_dont_grow_old_the_same_way

There's a ton of research out there documenting myriad differences in male & female humans' lung tissues & function as well as in the rest of the respiratory system.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5980468/

Fleurista, since I needled you the other day about a comment you made about taking a breath upon awakening as "feminine," you might be interested to know that it's been shown that there are documented differences in the way male & female humans breathe. These are another reason why males shouldn't be competing in female sports, coz they give an advantage that isn't done away with or diminished by altering hormone profiles and undergoing even the most extreme transition-related body modifications such as genital surgery.

http://www.luzimarteixeira.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/mecanismos_respiracao_no_esforco_2008.pdf

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wrote a little about this in another comment, but it just occurred to me that I've actually been experiencing and learning the differences between male and female ability and physiology in my self defense classes, I just didn't think to apply that here since it's not a competitive sport, but we do spar as well. Despite my smaller size and hypoandrogenism, it still takes me notably less effort to generate power than the women in my class, even though they can still strike just as hard and I often get beat up by them in sparring. So my maleness still gives me an advantage, even with my developmental abnormalities.

The lung tissue and breathing capacity difference is actually quite fascinating, I always wondered why I could play the flute more loudly than the girls in school, but that makes a lot of sense now.

Thank you for copying and sharing this info, the changes at the molecular level I'm quite intrigued by and now I'd like to read a bit more about that!

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I always wondered why I could play the flute more loudly than the girls in school, but that makes a lot of sense now.

If you want to see sex stereotypes dominate and biological sex differences totally ignored, google "sex differences wind instruments." All you'll get is articles about "gender" that say males have tended to play X and females Y solely because of sex role expectations - such as women generally don't play brass horns coz it's unladylike, not pretty and deforms their lips so they're not "kissable."

https://www.bsomusic.org/stories/boys-play-trumpet-and-girls-play-flute-but-why.aspx

Same goes for discussions of sex differences in choice of musical instruments more generally:

https://www.wqxr.org/story/stereotyping-instruments-why-we-still-think-some-are-for-boys-others-for-girls/

These sorts of reports are maddening to me coz they are so myopic. Yes, the sex stereotypes that constitute "gender" are important to consider and certainly play a huge role, but they don't tell the whole story. For example, the standard take on sex differences in wind instrument choice nowadays completely overlooks the role of such biological, physical matters as all the differences in male & female lung capacity & respiratory function - as well as the fact that women have much less upper body strength then men make it much more difficult for us to hold a sax or set of bagpipes whilst standing & playing for extended periods of time. Moreover, our relative lack of upper body strength plus our generally smaller size also makes it much harder for girls & women to lug around large instruments like tubas (and cellos too).

Moreover, there is virtually no information out there other than anecdotal reports about how playing wind instruments is affected by pregnancy. Or about the impact that playing any instrument that's close to the belly - as in the case of a sax, guitar, piano or other keyboard - might have on a developing fetus. Which just goes to show how little inquiry & scientific research there is about matters having to do with exclusively female physiology and female-specific health concerns.

On a more general note, I am glad the info & links/sources I have shared have been useful & interesting to you. I am also glad that you realize that many of us who are critical of the claims of gender identity ideology and skeptical about transgenderism are not driven by animus or intolerance, but have come to our views coz we have a fair bit of info/knowledge not just about sexual politics, but about human sex development, biological sex differences, psychology, child development, how humans form our sense of self and self-worth, & how human sexuality & relationships work. This knowledge - plus our commitment to & concern about women's rights, gay & lesbian rights and acceptance, and the social acceptance & wellbeing of people who don't conform to rigid sex stereotypes in surface "presentation" or personality traits - makes us think that the current craze for gender ideology & "transitioning" is not good for children, women, homosexuals, "GNC" people and society in general, and is also harming & misleading the vast majority of the kids & adults who now "identify as" the opposite sex, claim they have no sex, or believe they can ping-pong back and forth between sexes at will.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In those articles they seem to touch ever so slightly on the subject of biological differences and implications, the arguments and observations do seem hyper-focused on the stereotypes and correlation to sex role expectations. The practical and physical aspects aren't something I'd ever really considered, but I did always appreciate playing a lighter instrument--I got the last laugh 😜 I never did see the flute as being a "girl instrument", but I did feel a bit more sophisticated and fancy for playing it, not like those boors blasting their horns (a sexist view now, perhaps, even if unconscious). Now I'm curious to look into the sexism within orchestras and instrumentation!

Yes, it's all been very helpful! I learn oodles from what you and others share, truly, because obviously I don't know nearly as much about the world and the topics we discuss as most everyone here does. I love to learn, so I'm always happy to discover things I never knew, even if it might be at odds with how I think I understand the world around me. As I've said elsewhere, I agree with nearly everything gender critical feminism shares, even if maybe it seems like by presenting myself in life as a woman I'm disrespecting those beliefs. But I'm ever curious to learn more, and I just keep meeting smart, interesting and friendly people along the way--it filled my heart to learn you all actually care quite deeply for others.