How is identifying as transgender/nonbinary/whatever not catfishing?

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Regardless of what any trans person believes- it’s safe to assume that they understand they transitioned, yes?

No matter if they’re tucute or transmed, no matter what particular trans ideology they subscribe to, they are still trans. Not disclosing that they’re trans is the intent to deceive. It’s only “factually wrong” if they forgot they transitioned. Which- how would they forget if they have to take hormones regularly and had/have to take special care to heal their GRS (if they didn’t have GRS, I’d assume the whole “I still have a penis/vagina would be a constant reminder that they are trans)?

If they haven’t somehow forgotten that they transitioned but they don’t disclose, they are intentionally deceptive.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (16 children)

How are the being intentionally deceptive? Trans people don't owe anyone their personal medical history, anymore than anyone without a communicable disease does.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

It’s not medical history. Transwomen are still biologically male and transmen are still biologically female.

If you want to defend sexual assault we don’t need to speak further. It’s one of the few things I can’t really move past in debate. The idea that you’re comfortable with rape by deception and or denying someone the ability to fully consent to being with a trans person makes me uncomfortable.

Eta: before you say something about how it’s not assault because you didn’t force anyone, you just withheld information- rape/sexual assault is not just about force or violence. It’s also about violation (amongst other things). If someone doesn’t want to be with a trans person and a trans person is not honest with them, if/when they find out, they will feel sexually violated and you have no idea how they may react or how it will impact them. As I said, nobody is owed sex or companionship. But everyone is owed the ability to give fully informed consent. It’s wrong to deny anyone- even a truly transphobic person- the right to consent. It blows my mind that you don’t get that. And it’s a disappointment, because I actually enjoyed debating with you but I think I have to step back from engaging with you for a while.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 7 fun1 insightful - 6 fun2 insightful - 7 fun -  (14 children)

Understand that I am equally horrified by your views.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 5 fun9 insightful - 6 fun -  (13 children)

Idgaf 🤷‍♀️

Imagine promoting the « right » to rape but being horrified that someone else understands how sex works and thinks trans people should respect others. Lmao

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (12 children)

It is not up to trans people to root out if their date is a transphobe, anymore than a jewish person has an obligation to find out if their date is antisemitic.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Not comparable. Jewish people aren’t lying about their sex (or lying by omission).

You want to encourage a dangerous and rapey tactic to get more trans people laid, I guess... go for it.

I’ll just place my counter to that here: It’s dangerous, and it’s a shitty thing to do, but I guess if you think you’re entitled to sex, even with someone who would never want to sleep with you if they knew you were trans, if you’re fine with the thought of potentially sexually violating someone so that you can be sexually validated and sexually satisfied, if you don’t care that in any other situation where someone concealed a fact just so they could get off, we’d all understand that they were in the wrong...basically, if the effect you may have on your victim partner is not something you care about, go ahead and go assault people... I guess? Because technically you can, and that makes it okay?? But don’t try to justify it, just call it what it is- you want to get laid, and that’s all that matters.

I think it’s wrong, it’s been heavily discussed and it seems common consensus that it’s wrong and rapey as fuck, but Idk i guess use your « get out of being accountable because I’m trans » card, I’ve heard it’s good for life, you can never use it too much. (Heavy on the /s)

I was glad to see you comment because at least you keep it interesting. But I don’t really want to waste my time on people who are pro rape so we’re done here.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (7 children)

It’s completely comparable to an antisemite being mad that a jewish person didn’t let them know that they were jewish. And thats why we’ll never agree on this.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

It’s not comparable.

You advocate for rape being allowed as long as it’s a trans person raping someone. It’s absurd to me. You’re right, we will never agree. Because I will never agree that someone’s desire to get laid matters more than someone else’s consent. But I’m not a rape apologist so maybe that’s why.

Word things however you want- no matter what you say, what false comparison you offer to try to justify, you support intentionally robbing a sexual partner of the ability to fully consent. That’s just the truth of the situation, there’s no way around it, but I’m sure you’ll try to find one.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Why don’t they just ask then if its such a big deal to them? Nothing is stopping them.

[–]ZveroboyAlinaIs clownfish a clown or a fish? 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It is absolutely different, because being jew does not change that you have or have not penis, does not change biology. Rape by deception is not like not saying your nationality.

What it would be comparable is if your sex partner will be mad that you not said to them about you having HIV. That is similar thing, which is comparable. It is when person would otherwise would not give you consent, you know it but you lied to get in bed with them in hope they will try to be nice as sleep with you anyways, or that they will be too afraid to protest to a male (I remember my university years, when male teacher who was half a meter taller than me started to sexually harass and advance to me, and I was too scared that he will just murder me if I oppose or try to run, fear paralyzed me, but other teacher came there and so this one tried to make it looks like nothing happened and fled). So those are absolutely different things as "hiding your nationality", because nationality changes absolutely nothing biologically.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 6 fun1 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Its not rape by deception, if you have a problem with trans people then the onus is on you to find out if your romantic partner is trans.

[–]Juniperius 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

One of several reasons that makes this a bad comparison is that nobody expects to be able to tell by looking whether someone is Jewish. Religious beliefs are an intangible, internal quality, and Jews, like Muslims, Christians, atheists, etc come in all colors and appearances and both sexes. There may or may not be clues, and everyone takes for granted that you don't know people's religion unless they tell you. This is not at all like which sex someone is, which is obvious at a glance 99.9% of the time, and generally takes a lot of effort and money to hide - which means if someone is not the sex they appear, this is an active deception. Active deception is not equivalent to something you would never expect to know without asking.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

QT viewpoint:

There may or may not be clues, and everyone takes for granted that you don't know people's sex trait status unless they tell you.

[–]Juniperius 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I know that's the qt viewpoint, and my comment describes several reasons why it is false.

It's like if you believed the moon was made of green cheese, and I said to you, "no because green cheese has such and such characteristics, and the moon has this entirely other set of characteristics," and you responded, "yes, the green cheese characteristics are what we believe the moon is like."