Ok, it's time to update the rules

submitted by grixitperson[M] from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (21 children)

I actually would call that an ad hominem an treat it as such. Calling trans people delusional in general calls their rationality into question and tries to weaken their argument without addressing it.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

What if someone is saying that the concept of gender identity is delusional, but not being trans or having dysphoria?

Like what if we think a specific person (not in the sub) is delusional? Or we think an aspect to a point made is delusional?

Basically I’m asking if we can’t use the word at all, or if we specifically can’t refer to trans people in general as delusional?

[–]Porcelain_QuetzalTabby without Ears 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

If you're saying "trans people are delusional" or "you're delusional" I consider that an ad hominem. If you give a specific person for the sake of argument it's fine. If I say Margerie Taylor Greens belief in God is delusional thats fine. If you call everyone who beliefs in God delusional it's not. Attack beliefs not people and I don't care.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (17 children)

I guess the question is why use an emotionally charged term that is widely considered an insult outside of specific medical contexts, when you could accomplish the same goal of pointing out that a persons viewpoint lacks logical coherence with terms that are more neutral sounding?

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

It’s not really an emotionally charged term. Nor is it an insult. If we were talking about any other situation where someone sees themselves as something they aren’t, people would be okay with using it. People have used it here to reference other conditions (im not calling dysphoria delusional, I think gender identity is).

What word would we put in place of “delusional”?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (15 children)

I mean it widely seems to be considered insulting when used outside of medical contexts from a quick perusing of the web, regardless of how any individuals feels about the term. Also objectively it seems inappropriate if the person is just using different definitions from other people to describe themselves. For instance if a boy from the 1600’s were to time travel to the present day, no would consider him delusional to describe himself as a “girl” because the term had a different definition back then of just meaning any young child. So since I feel that most trans people are using different definitions than GC people on these terms, then it is unfair to call them delusional for not fitting GCs criteria for a term when they’re usage of the term is logically consistent to how they define the term.

Doesn’t make sense, nonsensical, illogical, wrong, doesn’t match reality.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I’m just waiting for a mod to tell me if referring to a specific thing as delusional is okay, vs referring to trans people in general is okay. I respect your opinion I just disagree.

The argument of it’s an insult because some people think it’s an insult isn’t enough for me to personally think it’s a word that should be off limits. I’m a firm believer in the idea that words have meaning, and whatever implications an individual puts on words regardless of their actual meaning is their own thing to deal with. I get we can dispute the meaning of sex based words here, but we shouldn’t dispute the meaning of words that aren’t related to sex/gender at all. If the mods say not to use the word at all I’ll respect the decision, of course. But I think if I said “gender identity doesn’t make sense/is nonsensical/illogical/wrong” I’d still end up having to describe it being delusional without using the word, and it would still upset some qt.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don't think trans identified people are delusional, at least not in a clinical sense. I think deep down they do know they are not the opposite sex, they just wish they were for a variety of reasons. And that is why they so keen on redefining words, etcetera so as not to aknowledge their biological sex. I supose that is why QT are protesting the use of "delusional".

Grixit has disallowed describing trans people as delusional in other post recently.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree that trans people aren’t delusional, in general.

I’m saying that the word delusional could apply to specific people, trans or not, or specific aspects of an ideology or belief. I would never call someone delusional for being trans, or even for arguing that there’s a sex spectrum.

I was asking if in specific circumstances, the word could be used if it’s applicable. I know we can’t because “feelings”, but it seems like it doesn’t really prevent any one from saying something is delusional, we just have to find a way to articulate that something is delusional without using the word. Which, imo, doesn’t really accomplish anything because the sentiment is the same.

I’m not arguing with Heim about using it here, I accept that we can’t, I’m just debating whether or not the word is an insult in general

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I guess whether the word is an insult or not really depend on the context. I don't think is always an insult.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. But I think that when it is an insult, it’s being used incorrectly.

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

Do you not feel that what constitutes an insult is subjective? A term can go from neutral to widely viewed as an insult depending on the context that it’s used in regardless of the dictionary definition.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I agree that insult is subjective. Which is exactly why people interpreting “delusional” as an insult is not enough reason to not use it for me. If I’m called delusional, I’d just explain why I think I’m not, I’m not going to get insulted, because I understand that they are telling me that what I’m saying doesn’t align with reality. I’d just explain why I think it does. I get why we have rules about gendered terms and sexed terms, but to not allow use of other words that have meanings that we all understand seems too much. I may say “gender identity is delusional” and you may say “no it’s not”. Either way, we both know what “delusional” means and it’s definition isn’t in dispute. What’s in dispute is whether or not gender identity is delusional. So even if we don’t use that specific word, and we dance around it, at the end of the day, we’d still be discussing whether or not gender identity is delusional. And both of us would know that that’s exactly what we are discussing. So why dance around the word?

[–]HeimdeklediROAR 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

I mean do you really never intend to cause offense or provoke an emotional reaction by using such a term? I know that the other day I was (wrongfully) trying to cause offense to others by using the term “cis” to describe them even though I also believe that the term is usually used by me and others as a neutral descriptor. I feel that usually delusional is not used as a neutral term even though it can be.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It’s not meant to cause offense. You placing meaning that’s not there on the word causes the offense, not my using it. I’m using it strictly as it is defined. I don’t think someone genuinely being delusional is an insult, you don’t want to be forced to apply our understanding of words to yourself- don’t force us to interpret words as you do. “Delusional” means what it means, you added the insult to it for yourself.

You “feel” that the word is not a neutral term- that doesn’t mean it’s not. It means you personally don’t think it is.

As I said, if the mods say we can’t use the word at all, I won’t, but I’d still be basically saying something I think is delusional is delusional, even without the word. So it seems pointless to make people type around the word when we all agree on what the actual word means, regardless of whether we think the concept or person the word is applied to is delusional.