QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

submitted by BiologyIsReal from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You talk a lot about "female socialization". What, in terms of socialization, do a western woman raised gender neutral, a woman raised in a quiverfull family, a Basha Posh (Afghan custom where girls are raised as boys in order to deal with the extreme restrictions put upon girls in afghan society) and a woman raised in some awfull corner of the world where FGM is still practiced in common?

What do those women... what? I think you forgot a part of the sentence.

what do these women have in common in terms of socialization?

I don' t care if it' s a vilication, if they learned to stay the fuck away from women' s spaces, I wouldn' t have to "vilify" them.

again. Do you have any statistical evidence, that admitting transgender women into women's shelters causes an increase in danger?

Second, we were talking about sexual abusers here. A sexual abuser always raises danger when they are around potential victims.

No, we were not talking about sexual abusers. We were talking about a transgender women in need of a rape shelter. But the fact, that you equate a transgender women to a sexual abuser is very telling.

And a sexual abuser, regardless of what gonads they might or might not have should not be in a rape shelter.

Third: nobody is saying that that guy who was raped shouldn' t get care, I am just saying that he shouldn' t get it in a women' s shelter. He' s a man, he can go to "gender neutral" shelters

1.) how many "gender neutral" shelters are there? 2.) do you believe, a person who looks like this would be anymore safe to put in a men's shelter than it would be safe to put a man inside a women's shelter?

I don' t know what JPG means.

I was asking, whether the person in the picture I linked (this person) should have access to a women's shelter.

If the MMA world champion were recognized to be violent or a sexual abuser, yes, she shouldn' t be put in the same room as someone who could never defend herself. Not to mention, someone violent shouldn' t be put around other people to begin with, especially in a freaking shelter. They need specific care, being around potential victims is the stupidest thing possible.

I wasn't asking, whether a "violent or a sexual abuser" should be "put in the same room as someone who could never defend" themself (because the answer to that is obviously no). I was asking, whether differences in physical ability should determine which victims are going to be put in the same room inside rape shelters (Because if you answer "no" to this question, your argument of "the victim could have a better chance to defend herself" falls apart)

If they are neutral, the fact that there is a woman sign in the front would be completely useless, but we obviously can' t give women the idea that they deserve to be separated from men, can we?

gender neutral bathrooms aside, you are seperated from men, it's just that transgender women aren't men. And if it is all cubicles (e.g. no one is naked in front of anyone else), what does it matter?

And? It still doesn' t prove that gender identity is a thing, unless you are ready to define gender identity as a mental illness. I am ok with that. Still, a mental illness that makes you hate your own body to the point that you want invasive surgery to change it 1) doesn' t equal with an innate natural identity that is at the base of womanhood for everyone and 2) it should be fought against, not pandered to.

Gender Identity is not a mental condition. Gender dysphoria - the distress arising from the incongruence between ones gender identity and ones physical sex - is. And no, just ignoring this disconect does not work. What does work, is social and medical transitioning.

I constantly want to not be considered a woman, given that women are not given even the fucking respect of having ONE single word to describe themselves. But not wanting to be considered a woman doesn' t change the fact that I am.

Of course you have a word to describe yourself. The word is "woman", or, if you don't want to include transgender women, "cisgender women".

And anyway, even assuming that were the case, they still have the knowledge of the other sex: desiring the other category' s characteristics, both physical or social, is not something that cannot occurr unless you know about trans people.

That is quite the claim you make. That it is not possible for gender dysphoria to appear in someone, who has never heard of transgender people. Do you have any evidence for this? And if that is the case, and it is solely psychological, why do purely psychological methods of treatment not work?

Yeah, because women IS a sex category. The rights granted to women on the basis of sex ARE for women because woman = adult human FEMALE.

there are no right granted on the basis of sex. https://rgellman.medium.com/there-is-no-such-thing-as-sex-based-rights-in-the-uk-140554a2c42c

The closest thing to "sex based rights" would be laws specifically related to reproductive healthercare and I don't see how writing "women and other people can get abortions if they request so" instead of "women can get abortions if they request so" would take away rights from women, but for transgender men, it makes a lot of difference

I don' t really care much about adding trans men and female NBs, the point is still that all the rights we have INCLUDE MEN.

Ok. Thanks that you finally agree to the form "women and other people can get abortions if they request so", so that transgender men and AFAB non-binary people are included.

c.) no psychologist who doesn't deserve their license taken would diagnose someone as gender dysphoric just for not following gender stereotypes while the patient expresses to be completly fine with their sexed characteristics. That doesn't happen.

LOL. Considering that the current atmosphere bans any kind of treatment that isn' 100% validation, and this for mental healtchare as well, I think you are full of shit.

regardless of what I think about the affirmation only approach (not a big fan), the affirmation only approach doesn't even do what you claim, e.g. regardless of how many male/female gender stereotypes the child with female/male birth sex follows, if the child in question doesn't consider itself to be a girl/a boy, even the most out-of-his-mind 100%-validation isn't going to claim trans.

No, they should just accept reality and not force people to pretend that things that aren' t real are real.

Where do transgender people "forcing people to pretend that things that aren' t real are real"? A transgender man/transgender woman having his/her legal gender/legal sex as "Male"/"Female" isn't forcing anyone to "pretend" that he/she have a penis/uterus.

If they accepted that they are mentally ill people who want to live as the other sex, instead of pushing to erase the definition of sex and replace with their crap, I can assure you that most people wouldn' t be as antagonistic against them.

No one "erases" the definition of sex, it's more that the argument is made, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" refer to social categories defined by these sexes, with transgender people wanting to be included in the sopcial category of their gender identity. If you want to argue, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" are purely biological, please come up with your own terms for the social categories, and replace all instances of "Man" and "Woman" that refer to the social categories and not biological categories with these new terms.

I give a shit about chromosomes. They are the defining characteristic that describes sex. So when we are talking about sex, I want them to be included in the conversation.

ok. Now, tell me again, how many people have you tested for their chromosomes? And why do you think anyone else gives a shit?

TRAs are definitely NOT fighting for that. They want to use their preferred sex' s spaces, why the fuck should they care about fighting to get neutral spaces when they can appopriate women' s?

Transgender rights activists do fight for people being free to use the sex-seggregated-space alligning with their gender identity (this also includes transgender man - who you would consider to be "women" - "appopriating" men's spaces) where there aren't gender neutral spaces, but they also pretty much always (as in: I have never seen a transgender rights activists argueing against but plenty for) fight for gender neutral spaces. Gender critical people meanwhile are the one's fighting against gender neutral spaces.

And the reason why I am not fighting for them is because I have zero issues with sex segregated spaces.

Of course you have zero issue. Because they actually are gender-seperated. Otherwise you would have to deal with transgender men (as pictured in the link) in your bathroom as often as you have to deal with transgender women now (except that you would always notice the well-passing ones).

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

what do these women have in common in terms of socialization?

The fact that they are considered female. First of all in western countries there is no such a thing as "being gender neutral": evena ssuming her parents raise her like that, everyone else would recognize that person as female and would behave accordingly. I don' t know what a quiverfill family is. As for the Afghan girl, she wouldn' t have to get "a boy role" if she weren' t treated as a second rate citizen for her sex.

again. Do you have any statistical evidence, that admitting transgender women into women's shelters causes an increase in danger?

I didn' t say anything about them raising danger statistically. I personally think they do, but the problem here is that that is a female-segregated space and natal males are males.

No, we were not talking about sexual abusers. We were talking about a transgender women in need of a rape shelter. But the fact, that you equate a transgender women to a sexual abuser is very telling.

It' s not really so much of a gotcha, dear: any male who thinks he is entitled to women' s spaces is a potential sexual abuser to me. If they feel entitled to be in a space designed for females to recover from sexual abuse, 99, 9% of times done by males, then it' s really not that big of a leap to me to see them as being entitled to women' s bodies as well and that they have no respect for women' s privacy and well-being.

1.) how many "gender neutral" shelters are there?

WORK.TO.BUILD.SOME! Do you think women had theirs granted on a silver platter?

2.) do you believe, a person who looks like this JPG would be anymore safe to put in a men's shelter than it would be safe to put a man inside a women's shelter?

That' s why I said that people like that should find LGBT+++ shelters and/or gender neutral shelters. Regardless, if that person is male, he shouldn' t be in a females' s shelter. Where he goes is not my concern as long as he' s not in a women' s shelter.

I was asking, whether the person in the picture I linked (this JPG person) should have access to a women's shelter.

If she' s a woman, she should have the right to access women' s shelters. That it would be appropriate or preferable for her is another thing entirely.

gender neutral bathrooms aside, you are seperated from men, it's just that transgender women aren't men. And if it is all cubicles (e.g. no one is naked in front of anyone else), what does it matter?

I am not separated from men if a man who calls himself a woman is there. And it matters because, once again, those spaces are SEX SEGREGATED! Males shouldn' t be there. As I told you already, it' s shitting on women' s dignity and rights.

I wasn't asking, whether a "violent or a sexual abuser" should be "put in the same room as someone who could never defend" themself (because the answer to that is obviously no). I was asking, whether differences in physical ability should determine which victims are going to be put in the same room inside rape shelters (Because if you answer "no" to this question, your argument of "the victim could have a better chance to defend herself" falls apart)

No, we were talking (and this is true for your previous sentence about how we weren' t talking about sex offenders as well) about potentially violent people in a room with others. The entire discussion started when YOU said:

And if a person with a vagina was raped by another person with a vagina

The comparison I was making was between a female sex offender and a male sex offender. Granted that I agree that sex offenders shouldn' t be housed with anyone, but if that happened, a female sex offender would be better than a male one because there would be more chances for the victim to defend herself and she wouldn' t have the aggravating of potential pregnancies.

In regular cases in which nobody is a violent/sex offender, it doesn' t matter the height, weight and muscles of the two female guests of the shelters. Males, however, should still not be there. Without exceptions.

Gender Identity is not a mental condition. Gender dysphoria - the distress arising from the incongruence between ones gender identity and ones physical sex - is. And no, just ignoring this disconect does not work. What does work, is social and medical transitioning.

First of all, I never said "ignoring", I said that "it should be fought". Therapy can help, as there could probably be other solutions that are not currently being studied because they are considered conversion therapy and transphobic. Second, if the only solution to make these people happy is to deny reality, then sorry but they are on their own as far as I am concerned. I am not going to pretend men are women just because they hate their penis or like wearing pink panties in the same way I am not going to pretend that the Earth is flat or that fairies exist.

Of course you have a word to describe yourself. The word is "woman", or, if you don't want to include transgender women, "cisgender women".

No, I don' t. Because if woman means "someone who has the gender identity of a woman", then I am not one. I don' t have a gender identity. And I am not "cis" either, because "cis" means "identifies with the gender assigned at birth". If gender are stereotypes and sex-based roles, I don' t identify with that.

That is quite the claim you make. That it is not possible for gender dysphoria to appear in someone, who has never heard of transgender people. Do you have any evidence for this? And if that is the case, and it is solely psychological, why do purely psychological methods of treatment not work?

Uh? I am not saying that it can' t happen? I am saying the opposite? That people can desire the other sex' s characteristics without knowing of trans people. It is purely psychological though, and the reason it can' t be treated is that we haven' t found a way to treat it yet.

there are no right granted on the basis of sex

Great, then we should destroy any place that has a disctinction between men and women. I wonder where trans natal male could get that sweet validation from.

Where do transgender people "forcing people to pretend that things that aren' t real are real"? A transgender man/transgender woman having his/her legal gender/legal sex as "Male"/"Female" isn't forcing anyone to "pretend" that he/she have a penis/uterus.

They are forcing them to pretend that they are male/female, which they aren' t.

No one "erases" the definition of sex, it's more that the argument is made, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" refer to social categories defined by these sexes, with transgender people wanting to be included in the sopcial category of their gender identity. If you want to argue, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" are purely biological, please come up with your own terms for the social categories, and replace all instances of "Man" and "Woman" that refer to the social categories and not biological categories with these new terms.

Except man and woman are sex categories. I don' t use those terms as social groups, so I refuse to grant that request. If you want terms for the social categories, you can have "women and men who present as women" and "men and women who present as men". I don' t think they cut, though, because people who present as the other sex still don' t have the same social experiences that people of that sex have.

ok. Now, tell me again, how many people have you tested for their chromosomes? And why do you think anyone else gives a shit?

That' s their problem, I do care about them.

Transgender rights activists do fight for people being free to use the sex-seggregated-space alligning with their gender identity (this also includes transgender man - who you would consider to be "women" - "appopriating" men's spaces) where there aren't gender neutral spaces, but they also pretty much always (as in: I have never seen a transgender rights activists argueing against but plenty for) fight for gender neutral spaces. Gender critical people meanwhile are the one's fighting against gender neutral spaces.

Never heard of that, both TRAs fighting for it, and GC being against that. GC would be more than happy to have gender neutral spaces added to the male-female one, even though we know that trans people would never use them. As for TRAs, nobody I have ever talked to was ok with them. There are posters in this sub who, when asked, always answer with "we can' t get them, if you want us to have them fight for them yourselves... we are not going to use them anyway".

Of course you have zero issue. Because they actually are gender-seperated. Otherwise you would have to deal with transgender men (as pictured in the link) in your bathroom as often as you have to deal with transgender women now (except that you would always notice the well-passing ones).

I would have zero issues with trans men there. If I were sure that they were actually women, whatever perceived problem I would feel initially would leave immediately. Does that mean that any trans natal male that doesn' t pass shouldn' t be in women' s spaces?

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The fact that they are considered female.

and that means precisely what in terms of socialization?

I don' t know what a quiverfill family is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull

As for the Afghan girl, she wouldn' t have to get "a boy role" if she weren' t treated as a second rate citizen for her sex.

the entire point why I named them is, that they are socialized male despite their sex being female.

I didn' t say anything about them raising danger statistically. I personally think they do, but the problem here is that that is a female-segregated space and natal males are males.

they are gender-segregated spaces. And unless you can point to evidence showing an increase in danger from allowing transgender women into women's shelters, I see more harm done by refusing them necessary care then from the damage to "dignity and rights", unless you can show otherwise.

It' s not really so much of a gotcha, dear: any male who thinks he is entitled to women' s spaces is a potential sexual abuser to me. If they feel entitled to be in a space designed for females to recover from sexual abuse, 99, 9% of times done by males, then it' s really not that big of a leap to me to see them as being entitled to women' s bodies as well and that they have no respect for women' s privacy and well-being.

Because a transgender woman that looks like a woman and has been raped by a man is totally going to feel comfortable sharing her space with men and totally only going to the women's shelter out of entitlement.

Also, your claim of "sexual abuse, 99, 9% of times done by males" is Wayyyy of, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_females_by_females , https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

WORK.TO.BUILD.SOME! Do you think women had theirs granted on a silver platter?

there is not a single publically financed shelter for male victims of domestic abuse in all of canada, dspite more than a quarter of victims of domestic violence being male https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-why-no-shelters-for-male-victims-of-partner-violence

Regardless, if that person is male, he shouldn' t be in a females' s shelter. Where he goes is not my concern as long as he' s not in a women' s shelter.

what if she does turn up anyway, but keeps mum about her trans-status and just makes sure no one finds out? Are going to introduce genital checks to keep that from happening?

I was asking, whether the person in the picture I linked (this JPG person) should have access to a women's shelter.

If she' s a woman, she should have the right to access women' s shelters. That it would be appropriate or preferable for her is another thing entirely.

and what is to keep some predatory cis man from claiming to be a transgender man? Also genital checks to keep that from happening?

And if it is all cubicles (e.g. no one is naked in front of anyone else), what does it matter?

And it matters because, once again, those spaces are SEX SEGREGATED! Males shouldn' t be there. As I told you already, it' s shitting on women' s dignity and rights.

Can you please elaborate what exactly the problem is if it is all cubicles? How is that "shitting on women' s dignity and rights"? For transgender people their is data and facts, that forcing them to use the seggregated space of their birth sex significantly increases their risk of sexual assault ( https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html ). Do you really consider your "Dignity" more important than someone else not getting sexually assaulted?

Granted that I agree that sex offenders shouldn' t be housed with anyone, but if that happened, a female sex offender would be better than a male one because there would be more chances for the victim to defend herself and she wouldn' t have the aggravating of potential pregnancies.

Except I already pointed out that there can easily be significant differences in physical ability between cisgender women (meaning the argument about the victims ability for self defense falls flat) and that whether a rape has the potential for pregnancies is not generally considered an aggravating point (because, again, by that standard a infertile woman, a woman on birth control or a child being raped would be considered less terrible)

In regular cases in which nobody is a violent/sex offender, it doesn' t matter the height, weight and muscles of the two female guests of the shelters.

If neither is violent or a sex offender, I don't see how it would matter what gonads the respective women have either.

No, I don' t. Because if woman means "someone who has the gender identity of a woman", then I am not one. I don' t have a gender identity. And I am not "cis" either, because "cis" means "identifies with the gender assigned at birth". If gender are stereotypes and sex-based roles, I don' t identify with that.

How often do I have to repeat that? Again, identifying with with a gender identity does not, at all, requiere you to identify with the gender stereotypes or gender roles.

Uh? I am not saying that it can' t happen? I am saying the opposite? That people can desire the other sex' s characteristics without knowing of trans people. It is purely psychological though, and the reason it can' t be treated is that we haven' t found a way to treat it yet.

Thing is, we have found a way to treat it. It's just that the treatment to this unusual desire is to grant that desire as far as possible.

there are no right granted on the basis of sex

Great, then we should destroy any place that has a disctinction between men and women. I wonder where trans natal male could get that sweet validation from.

Ok. Let's start with bathrooms and rape shelters. Make a petition of turning all sex- and gender-seggregated spaces into gender-neutral ones. I'm absoloutly going to sign that.

Where do transgender people "forcing people to pretend that things that aren' t real are real"? A transgender man/transgender woman having his/her legal gender/legal sex as "Male"/"Female" isn't forcing anyone to "pretend" that he/she have a penis/uterus.

They are forcing them to pretend that they are male/female, which they aren' t.

A transgender person having a legal gender/legal sex other than his birth sex doesn't force you to pretend anything. Or does a single letter on someones personal ID/passport really have that much power?

No one "erases" the definition of sex, it's more that the argument is made, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" refer to social categories defined by these sexes, with transgender people wanting to be included in the sopcial category of their gender identity. If you want to argue, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" are purely biological, please come up with your own terms for the social categories, and replace all instances of "Man" and "Woman" that refer to the social categories and not biological categories with these new terms.

Except man and woman are sex categories. I don' t use those terms as social groups, so I refuse to grant that request.

If "man" and "woman" are just sex categories, than they also should only be used in the context of biological sex, with all instances of their use refering to social categories to be replaced by new terms.

Transgender rights activists do fight for people being free to use the sex-seggregated-space alligning with their gender identity (this also includes transgender man - who you would consider to be "women" - "appopriating" men's spaces) where there aren't gender neutral spaces, but they also pretty much always (as in: I have never seen a transgender rights activists argueing against but plenty for) fight for gender neutral spaces. Gender critical people meanwhile are the one's fighting against gender neutral spaces.

Never heard of that, both TRAs fighting for it, and GC being against that. GC would be more than happy to have gender neutral spaces added to the male-female one, even though we know that trans people would never use them. As for TRAs, nobody I have ever talked to was ok with them. There are posters in this sub who, when asked, always answer with "we can' t get them, if you want us to have them fight for them yourselves... we are not going to use them anyway".

Are you full blown delusional? Gender critical groups absoloutly hate gender neutral spaces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet#Criticism plus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet#Protests_and_opposition) while the transgender generally is argueing for them ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet#Gender_nonconforming_people ). Please show me all the transgender people that flat out say that they oppose gender neutral spaces.

I would have zero issues with trans men there. If I were sure that they were actually women, whatever perceived problem I would feel initially would leave immediately.

And how would you be sure? Are you just going to ask him and take him at his word? If you see this person in the women's bathroom and, when you raise the question, this person claims to be a trans man, would your "perceived problem" "leave immediately" ?

Does that mean that any trans natal male that doesn' t pass shouldn' t be in women' s spaces?

actually, that is pretty much how both transgender men and transgender women handle it in practice for the most part. Transgender men start using the men's, when they start noticing that them being in the women's start making the women uncomfortable, transgender women start using the women's when they feel shure that they don't make the women uncomfortable, because they generally prefer to not cause to much trouble.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As for the Afghan girl, she wouldn' t have to get "a boy role" if she weren' t treated as a second rate citizen for her sex.

the entire point why I named them is, that they are socialized male despite their sex being female.

No, these girls are not socialized female. As a result of not having a brother, uncle or a father who can do the things males are customarily expected to do to provide for the family, these young Afghan girl children are forced into pretending to be the opposite sex in order to do those "male" things for the family themselves. Doing this puts the girls' lives at risk, brings them "dishonour" and makes them pretty much unmarriageable. Being a bacha posh means just more self-sacrifice and more self-abnegation for girls. And once these girls hit or pass puberty, they are usually forced back into female clothing and to stay at home again.