QT: Who is trans “inclusive” language really for?

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[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

You talk a lot about "female socialization". What, in terms of socialization, do a western woman raised gender neutral, a woman raised in a quiverfull family, a Basha Posh (Afghan custom where girls are raised as boys in order to deal with the extreme restrictions put upon girls in afghan society) and a woman raised in some awfull corner of the world where FGM is still practiced in common?

What do those women... what? I think you forgot a part of the sentence.

what do these women have in common in terms of socialization?

I don' t care if it' s a vilication, if they learned to stay the fuck away from women' s spaces, I wouldn' t have to "vilify" them.

again. Do you have any statistical evidence, that admitting transgender women into women's shelters causes an increase in danger?

Second, we were talking about sexual abusers here. A sexual abuser always raises danger when they are around potential victims.

No, we were not talking about sexual abusers. We were talking about a transgender women in need of a rape shelter. But the fact, that you equate a transgender women to a sexual abuser is very telling.

And a sexual abuser, regardless of what gonads they might or might not have should not be in a rape shelter.

Third: nobody is saying that that guy who was raped shouldn' t get care, I am just saying that he shouldn' t get it in a women' s shelter. He' s a man, he can go to "gender neutral" shelters

1.) how many "gender neutral" shelters are there? 2.) do you believe, a person who looks like this would be anymore safe to put in a men's shelter than it would be safe to put a man inside a women's shelter?

I don' t know what JPG means.

I was asking, whether the person in the picture I linked (this person) should have access to a women's shelter.

If the MMA world champion were recognized to be violent or a sexual abuser, yes, she shouldn' t be put in the same room as someone who could never defend herself. Not to mention, someone violent shouldn' t be put around other people to begin with, especially in a freaking shelter. They need specific care, being around potential victims is the stupidest thing possible.

I wasn't asking, whether a "violent or a sexual abuser" should be "put in the same room as someone who could never defend" themself (because the answer to that is obviously no). I was asking, whether differences in physical ability should determine which victims are going to be put in the same room inside rape shelters (Because if you answer "no" to this question, your argument of "the victim could have a better chance to defend herself" falls apart)

If they are neutral, the fact that there is a woman sign in the front would be completely useless, but we obviously can' t give women the idea that they deserve to be separated from men, can we?

gender neutral bathrooms aside, you are seperated from men, it's just that transgender women aren't men. And if it is all cubicles (e.g. no one is naked in front of anyone else), what does it matter?

And? It still doesn' t prove that gender identity is a thing, unless you are ready to define gender identity as a mental illness. I am ok with that. Still, a mental illness that makes you hate your own body to the point that you want invasive surgery to change it 1) doesn' t equal with an innate natural identity that is at the base of womanhood for everyone and 2) it should be fought against, not pandered to.

Gender Identity is not a mental condition. Gender dysphoria - the distress arising from the incongruence between ones gender identity and ones physical sex - is. And no, just ignoring this disconect does not work. What does work, is social and medical transitioning.

I constantly want to not be considered a woman, given that women are not given even the fucking respect of having ONE single word to describe themselves. But not wanting to be considered a woman doesn' t change the fact that I am.

Of course you have a word to describe yourself. The word is "woman", or, if you don't want to include transgender women, "cisgender women".

And anyway, even assuming that were the case, they still have the knowledge of the other sex: desiring the other category' s characteristics, both physical or social, is not something that cannot occurr unless you know about trans people.

That is quite the claim you make. That it is not possible for gender dysphoria to appear in someone, who has never heard of transgender people. Do you have any evidence for this? And if that is the case, and it is solely psychological, why do purely psychological methods of treatment not work?

Yeah, because women IS a sex category. The rights granted to women on the basis of sex ARE for women because woman = adult human FEMALE.

there are no right granted on the basis of sex. https://rgellman.medium.com/there-is-no-such-thing-as-sex-based-rights-in-the-uk-140554a2c42c

The closest thing to "sex based rights" would be laws specifically related to reproductive healthercare and I don't see how writing "women and other people can get abortions if they request so" instead of "women can get abortions if they request so" would take away rights from women, but for transgender men, it makes a lot of difference

I don' t really care much about adding trans men and female NBs, the point is still that all the rights we have INCLUDE MEN.

Ok. Thanks that you finally agree to the form "women and other people can get abortions if they request so", so that transgender men and AFAB non-binary people are included.

c.) no psychologist who doesn't deserve their license taken would diagnose someone as gender dysphoric just for not following gender stereotypes while the patient expresses to be completly fine with their sexed characteristics. That doesn't happen.

LOL. Considering that the current atmosphere bans any kind of treatment that isn' 100% validation, and this for mental healtchare as well, I think you are full of shit.

regardless of what I think about the affirmation only approach (not a big fan), the affirmation only approach doesn't even do what you claim, e.g. regardless of how many male/female gender stereotypes the child with female/male birth sex follows, if the child in question doesn't consider itself to be a girl/a boy, even the most out-of-his-mind 100%-validation isn't going to claim trans.

No, they should just accept reality and not force people to pretend that things that aren' t real are real.

Where do transgender people "forcing people to pretend that things that aren' t real are real"? A transgender man/transgender woman having his/her legal gender/legal sex as "Male"/"Female" isn't forcing anyone to "pretend" that he/she have a penis/uterus.

If they accepted that they are mentally ill people who want to live as the other sex, instead of pushing to erase the definition of sex and replace with their crap, I can assure you that most people wouldn' t be as antagonistic against them.

No one "erases" the definition of sex, it's more that the argument is made, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" refer to social categories defined by these sexes, with transgender people wanting to be included in the sopcial category of their gender identity. If you want to argue, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" are purely biological, please come up with your own terms for the social categories, and replace all instances of "Man" and "Woman" that refer to the social categories and not biological categories with these new terms.

I give a shit about chromosomes. They are the defining characteristic that describes sex. So when we are talking about sex, I want them to be included in the conversation.

ok. Now, tell me again, how many people have you tested for their chromosomes? And why do you think anyone else gives a shit?

TRAs are definitely NOT fighting for that. They want to use their preferred sex' s spaces, why the fuck should they care about fighting to get neutral spaces when they can appopriate women' s?

Transgender rights activists do fight for people being free to use the sex-seggregated-space alligning with their gender identity (this also includes transgender man - who you would consider to be "women" - "appopriating" men's spaces) where there aren't gender neutral spaces, but they also pretty much always (as in: I have never seen a transgender rights activists argueing against but plenty for) fight for gender neutral spaces. Gender critical people meanwhile are the one's fighting against gender neutral spaces.

And the reason why I am not fighting for them is because I have zero issues with sex segregated spaces.

Of course you have zero issue. Because they actually are gender-seperated. Otherwise you would have to deal with transgender men (as pictured in the link) in your bathroom as often as you have to deal with transgender women now (except that you would always notice the well-passing ones).

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

what do these women have in common in terms of socialization?

The fact that they are considered female. First of all in western countries there is no such a thing as "being gender neutral": evena ssuming her parents raise her like that, everyone else would recognize that person as female and would behave accordingly. I don' t know what a quiverfill family is. As for the Afghan girl, she wouldn' t have to get "a boy role" if she weren' t treated as a second rate citizen for her sex.

again. Do you have any statistical evidence, that admitting transgender women into women's shelters causes an increase in danger?

I didn' t say anything about them raising danger statistically. I personally think they do, but the problem here is that that is a female-segregated space and natal males are males.

No, we were not talking about sexual abusers. We were talking about a transgender women in need of a rape shelter. But the fact, that you equate a transgender women to a sexual abuser is very telling.

It' s not really so much of a gotcha, dear: any male who thinks he is entitled to women' s spaces is a potential sexual abuser to me. If they feel entitled to be in a space designed for females to recover from sexual abuse, 99, 9% of times done by males, then it' s really not that big of a leap to me to see them as being entitled to women' s bodies as well and that they have no respect for women' s privacy and well-being.

1.) how many "gender neutral" shelters are there?

WORK.TO.BUILD.SOME! Do you think women had theirs granted on a silver platter?

2.) do you believe, a person who looks like this JPG would be anymore safe to put in a men's shelter than it would be safe to put a man inside a women's shelter?

That' s why I said that people like that should find LGBT+++ shelters and/or gender neutral shelters. Regardless, if that person is male, he shouldn' t be in a females' s shelter. Where he goes is not my concern as long as he' s not in a women' s shelter.

I was asking, whether the person in the picture I linked (this JPG person) should have access to a women's shelter.

If she' s a woman, she should have the right to access women' s shelters. That it would be appropriate or preferable for her is another thing entirely.

gender neutral bathrooms aside, you are seperated from men, it's just that transgender women aren't men. And if it is all cubicles (e.g. no one is naked in front of anyone else), what does it matter?

I am not separated from men if a man who calls himself a woman is there. And it matters because, once again, those spaces are SEX SEGREGATED! Males shouldn' t be there. As I told you already, it' s shitting on women' s dignity and rights.

I wasn't asking, whether a "violent or a sexual abuser" should be "put in the same room as someone who could never defend" themself (because the answer to that is obviously no). I was asking, whether differences in physical ability should determine which victims are going to be put in the same room inside rape shelters (Because if you answer "no" to this question, your argument of "the victim could have a better chance to defend herself" falls apart)

No, we were talking (and this is true for your previous sentence about how we weren' t talking about sex offenders as well) about potentially violent people in a room with others. The entire discussion started when YOU said:

And if a person with a vagina was raped by another person with a vagina

The comparison I was making was between a female sex offender and a male sex offender. Granted that I agree that sex offenders shouldn' t be housed with anyone, but if that happened, a female sex offender would be better than a male one because there would be more chances for the victim to defend herself and she wouldn' t have the aggravating of potential pregnancies.

In regular cases in which nobody is a violent/sex offender, it doesn' t matter the height, weight and muscles of the two female guests of the shelters. Males, however, should still not be there. Without exceptions.

Gender Identity is not a mental condition. Gender dysphoria - the distress arising from the incongruence between ones gender identity and ones physical sex - is. And no, just ignoring this disconect does not work. What does work, is social and medical transitioning.

First of all, I never said "ignoring", I said that "it should be fought". Therapy can help, as there could probably be other solutions that are not currently being studied because they are considered conversion therapy and transphobic. Second, if the only solution to make these people happy is to deny reality, then sorry but they are on their own as far as I am concerned. I am not going to pretend men are women just because they hate their penis or like wearing pink panties in the same way I am not going to pretend that the Earth is flat or that fairies exist.

Of course you have a word to describe yourself. The word is "woman", or, if you don't want to include transgender women, "cisgender women".

No, I don' t. Because if woman means "someone who has the gender identity of a woman", then I am not one. I don' t have a gender identity. And I am not "cis" either, because "cis" means "identifies with the gender assigned at birth". If gender are stereotypes and sex-based roles, I don' t identify with that.

That is quite the claim you make. That it is not possible for gender dysphoria to appear in someone, who has never heard of transgender people. Do you have any evidence for this? And if that is the case, and it is solely psychological, why do purely psychological methods of treatment not work?

Uh? I am not saying that it can' t happen? I am saying the opposite? That people can desire the other sex' s characteristics without knowing of trans people. It is purely psychological though, and the reason it can' t be treated is that we haven' t found a way to treat it yet.

there are no right granted on the basis of sex

Great, then we should destroy any place that has a disctinction between men and women. I wonder where trans natal male could get that sweet validation from.

Where do transgender people "forcing people to pretend that things that aren' t real are real"? A transgender man/transgender woman having his/her legal gender/legal sex as "Male"/"Female" isn't forcing anyone to "pretend" that he/she have a penis/uterus.

They are forcing them to pretend that they are male/female, which they aren' t.

No one "erases" the definition of sex, it's more that the argument is made, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" refer to social categories defined by these sexes, with transgender people wanting to be included in the sopcial category of their gender identity. If you want to argue, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" are purely biological, please come up with your own terms for the social categories, and replace all instances of "Man" and "Woman" that refer to the social categories and not biological categories with these new terms.

Except man and woman are sex categories. I don' t use those terms as social groups, so I refuse to grant that request. If you want terms for the social categories, you can have "women and men who present as women" and "men and women who present as men". I don' t think they cut, though, because people who present as the other sex still don' t have the same social experiences that people of that sex have.

ok. Now, tell me again, how many people have you tested for their chromosomes? And why do you think anyone else gives a shit?

That' s their problem, I do care about them.

Transgender rights activists do fight for people being free to use the sex-seggregated-space alligning with their gender identity (this also includes transgender man - who you would consider to be "women" - "appopriating" men's spaces) where there aren't gender neutral spaces, but they also pretty much always (as in: I have never seen a transgender rights activists argueing against but plenty for) fight for gender neutral spaces. Gender critical people meanwhile are the one's fighting against gender neutral spaces.

Never heard of that, both TRAs fighting for it, and GC being against that. GC would be more than happy to have gender neutral spaces added to the male-female one, even though we know that trans people would never use them. As for TRAs, nobody I have ever talked to was ok with them. There are posters in this sub who, when asked, always answer with "we can' t get them, if you want us to have them fight for them yourselves... we are not going to use them anyway".

Of course you have zero issue. Because they actually are gender-seperated. Otherwise you would have to deal with transgender men (as pictured in the link) in your bathroom as often as you have to deal with transgender women now (except that you would always notice the well-passing ones).

I would have zero issues with trans men there. If I were sure that they were actually women, whatever perceived problem I would feel initially would leave immediately. Does that mean that any trans natal male that doesn' t pass shouldn' t be in women' s spaces?

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

The fact that they are considered female.

and that means precisely what in terms of socialization?

I don' t know what a quiverfill family is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull

As for the Afghan girl, she wouldn' t have to get "a boy role" if she weren' t treated as a second rate citizen for her sex.

the entire point why I named them is, that they are socialized male despite their sex being female.

I didn' t say anything about them raising danger statistically. I personally think they do, but the problem here is that that is a female-segregated space and natal males are males.

they are gender-segregated spaces. And unless you can point to evidence showing an increase in danger from allowing transgender women into women's shelters, I see more harm done by refusing them necessary care then from the damage to "dignity and rights", unless you can show otherwise.

It' s not really so much of a gotcha, dear: any male who thinks he is entitled to women' s spaces is a potential sexual abuser to me. If they feel entitled to be in a space designed for females to recover from sexual abuse, 99, 9% of times done by males, then it' s really not that big of a leap to me to see them as being entitled to women' s bodies as well and that they have no respect for women' s privacy and well-being.

Because a transgender woman that looks like a woman and has been raped by a man is totally going to feel comfortable sharing her space with men and totally only going to the women's shelter out of entitlement.

Also, your claim of "sexual abuse, 99, 9% of times done by males" is Wayyyy of, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender#Rape_of_females_by_females , https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/

WORK.TO.BUILD.SOME! Do you think women had theirs granted on a silver platter?

there is not a single publically financed shelter for male victims of domestic abuse in all of canada, dspite more than a quarter of victims of domestic violence being male https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-why-no-shelters-for-male-victims-of-partner-violence

Regardless, if that person is male, he shouldn' t be in a females' s shelter. Where he goes is not my concern as long as he' s not in a women' s shelter.

what if she does turn up anyway, but keeps mum about her trans-status and just makes sure no one finds out? Are going to introduce genital checks to keep that from happening?

I was asking, whether the person in the picture I linked (this JPG person) should have access to a women's shelter.

If she' s a woman, she should have the right to access women' s shelters. That it would be appropriate or preferable for her is another thing entirely.

and what is to keep some predatory cis man from claiming to be a transgender man? Also genital checks to keep that from happening?

And if it is all cubicles (e.g. no one is naked in front of anyone else), what does it matter?

And it matters because, once again, those spaces are SEX SEGREGATED! Males shouldn' t be there. As I told you already, it' s shitting on women' s dignity and rights.

Can you please elaborate what exactly the problem is if it is all cubicles? How is that "shitting on women' s dignity and rights"? For transgender people their is data and facts, that forcing them to use the seggregated space of their birth sex significantly increases their risk of sexual assault ( https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html ). Do you really consider your "Dignity" more important than someone else not getting sexually assaulted?

Granted that I agree that sex offenders shouldn' t be housed with anyone, but if that happened, a female sex offender would be better than a male one because there would be more chances for the victim to defend herself and she wouldn' t have the aggravating of potential pregnancies.

Except I already pointed out that there can easily be significant differences in physical ability between cisgender women (meaning the argument about the victims ability for self defense falls flat) and that whether a rape has the potential for pregnancies is not generally considered an aggravating point (because, again, by that standard a infertile woman, a woman on birth control or a child being raped would be considered less terrible)

In regular cases in which nobody is a violent/sex offender, it doesn' t matter the height, weight and muscles of the two female guests of the shelters.

If neither is violent or a sex offender, I don't see how it would matter what gonads the respective women have either.

No, I don' t. Because if woman means "someone who has the gender identity of a woman", then I am not one. I don' t have a gender identity. And I am not "cis" either, because "cis" means "identifies with the gender assigned at birth". If gender are stereotypes and sex-based roles, I don' t identify with that.

How often do I have to repeat that? Again, identifying with with a gender identity does not, at all, requiere you to identify with the gender stereotypes or gender roles.

Uh? I am not saying that it can' t happen? I am saying the opposite? That people can desire the other sex' s characteristics without knowing of trans people. It is purely psychological though, and the reason it can' t be treated is that we haven' t found a way to treat it yet.

Thing is, we have found a way to treat it. It's just that the treatment to this unusual desire is to grant that desire as far as possible.

there are no right granted on the basis of sex

Great, then we should destroy any place that has a disctinction between men and women. I wonder where trans natal male could get that sweet validation from.

Ok. Let's start with bathrooms and rape shelters. Make a petition of turning all sex- and gender-seggregated spaces into gender-neutral ones. I'm absoloutly going to sign that.

Where do transgender people "forcing people to pretend that things that aren' t real are real"? A transgender man/transgender woman having his/her legal gender/legal sex as "Male"/"Female" isn't forcing anyone to "pretend" that he/she have a penis/uterus.

They are forcing them to pretend that they are male/female, which they aren' t.

A transgender person having a legal gender/legal sex other than his birth sex doesn't force you to pretend anything. Or does a single letter on someones personal ID/passport really have that much power?

No one "erases" the definition of sex, it's more that the argument is made, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" refer to social categories defined by these sexes, with transgender people wanting to be included in the sopcial category of their gender identity. If you want to argue, that the terms "Man" and "Woman" are purely biological, please come up with your own terms for the social categories, and replace all instances of "Man" and "Woman" that refer to the social categories and not biological categories with these new terms.

Except man and woman are sex categories. I don' t use those terms as social groups, so I refuse to grant that request.

If "man" and "woman" are just sex categories, than they also should only be used in the context of biological sex, with all instances of their use refering to social categories to be replaced by new terms.

Transgender rights activists do fight for people being free to use the sex-seggregated-space alligning with their gender identity (this also includes transgender man - who you would consider to be "women" - "appopriating" men's spaces) where there aren't gender neutral spaces, but they also pretty much always (as in: I have never seen a transgender rights activists argueing against but plenty for) fight for gender neutral spaces. Gender critical people meanwhile are the one's fighting against gender neutral spaces.

Never heard of that, both TRAs fighting for it, and GC being against that. GC would be more than happy to have gender neutral spaces added to the male-female one, even though we know that trans people would never use them. As for TRAs, nobody I have ever talked to was ok with them. There are posters in this sub who, when asked, always answer with "we can' t get them, if you want us to have them fight for them yourselves... we are not going to use them anyway".

Are you full blown delusional? Gender critical groups absoloutly hate gender neutral spaces ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet#Criticism plus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet#Protests_and_opposition) while the transgender generally is argueing for them ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_public_toilet#Gender_nonconforming_people ). Please show me all the transgender people that flat out say that they oppose gender neutral spaces.

I would have zero issues with trans men there. If I were sure that they were actually women, whatever perceived problem I would feel initially would leave immediately.

And how would you be sure? Are you just going to ask him and take him at his word? If you see this person in the women's bathroom and, when you raise the question, this person claims to be a trans man, would your "perceived problem" "leave immediately" ?

Does that mean that any trans natal male that doesn' t pass shouldn' t be in women' s spaces?

actually, that is pretty much how both transgender men and transgender women handle it in practice for the most part. Transgender men start using the men's, when they start noticing that them being in the women's start making the women uncomfortable, transgender women start using the women's when they feel shure that they don't make the women uncomfortable, because they generally prefer to not cause to much trouble.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And unless you can point to evidence showing an increase in danger from allowing transgender women into women's shelters, I see more harm done by refusing them necessary care then from the damage to "dignity and rights", unless you can show otherwise.

Omg, I just can’t with this. Why do women have to prove to you or any other male that they need spaces away from males when they are raped or assaulted? Why do the feelings of a small number of males matter more?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As for the Afghan girl, she wouldn' t have to get "a boy role" if she weren' t treated as a second rate citizen for her sex.

the entire point why I named them is, that they are socialized male despite their sex being female.

No, these girls are not socialized female. As a result of not having a brother, uncle or a father who can do the things males are customarily expected to do to provide for the family, these young Afghan girl children are forced into pretending to be the opposite sex in order to do those "male" things for the family themselves. Doing this puts the girls' lives at risk, brings them "dishonour" and makes them pretty much unmarriageable. Being a bacha posh means just more self-sacrifice and more self-abnegation for girls. And once these girls hit or pass puberty, they are usually forced back into female clothing and to stay at home again.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

and that means precisely what in terms of socialization?

It means being treated as a second rate citizen, someone somewhat inferior to men, someone who is going to be a mother eventually because that' s what she is supposed to do, someone who becomes unwantable after 30, someone who is going to be a crazy cat owner by 50 uf they don' t get fucked enough, a sex object, someone less intelligent, someone who should stick to feminine roles. Add the issues with biology.

they are gender-segregated spaces. And unless you can point to evidence showing an increase in danger from allowing transgender women into women's shelters, I see more harm done by refusing them necessary care then from the damage to "dignity and rights", unless you can show otherwise.

If the issue is danger, then male astronomists with red hair and a leg prothesis should be allowed as well because there is no study that says their presence rises danger.

Because a transgender woman that looks like a woman and has been raped by a man is totally going to feel comfortable sharing her space with men and totally only going to the women's shelter out of entitlement.

Because a biological woman that is a woman and has been raped by an ejaculator is totally going to feel comfortable sharing her space with an ejaculator and totally only going to the female-only' s shelter out of bigotry against her trans sisters.

EDIT: Also, what does "a trans woman who looks like a woman" mean exactly? If womanhood is about gender identity, and anyone who had that identity is a woman, then what do looks have to do with anything? What does looking like a woman even mean? What are the signifiers that visually clock a woman as a woman if womanhood is an identity that has nothing to do with looks and stereotypes?

Also, your claim of "sexual abuse, 99, 9% of times done by males" is Wayyyy of

I wonder how many of those women were "women". That said, the numbers are still in "favour" of males. Also, if females are so dangerous, why should a dainty, harmless trans woman want to share space with those horribly violent and abusive hags?

there is not a single publically financed shelter for male victims of domestic abuse in all of canada, dspite more than a quarter of victims of domestic violence being male

WORK.TO.BUILD.SOME!

Also, in Canada the ONLY female-only shelter in the entire country was defunded by the government thanks to the "activism" of a brave and stunning trans woman.

what if she does turn up anyway, but keeps mum about her trans-status and just makes sure no one finds out? Are going to introduce genital checks to keep that from happening?

Then he' s an asshole. Personally I think that sex segregated spaces should have a DNA check so being lying assholes or not, they would get clocked immediately. That pesky Y chromosome!

Or, alternatively, putting the sex of a person (the real one) on some kind of electronic ID that should be scanned before entering.

and what is to keep some predatory cis man from claiming to be a transgender man? Also genital checks to keep that from happening?

That' s why I favour the blood testing/checking of ID with correct informations. And what is to keep some predatory "cis" man from claiming to be a trans woman?

Can you please elaborate what exactly the problem is if it is all cubicles?

If it' s all cubicles then there is no need to have a woman sign in front of the door. Just make singular spaces that are not grouped according to the woman-man binary.

How is that "shitting on women' s dignity and rights"? For transgender people their is data and facts, that forcing them to use the seggregated space of their birth sex significantly increases their risk of sexual assault

I didn' t say they should be forced to use their sex' s spaces, I just said that they shouldn' t be allowed to use their preferred sex' s spaces. As I said, I don' t care where they go as long as males are not in women' s spaces.

Except I already pointed out that there can easily be significant differences in physical ability between cisgender women (meaning the argument about the victims ability for self defense falls flat) and that whether a rape has the potential for pregnancies is not generally considered an aggravating point (because, again, by that standard a infertile woman, a woman on birth control or a child being raped would be considered less terrible)

I have no clue what you are trying to say here. If two women with no violent history are grouped together in a shelter then there is no problem.

If neither is violent or a sex offender, I don't see how it would matter what gonads the respective women have either.

Of course you don' t! What' s the point of having women' s shelters then? Just let anyone in.

How often do I have to repeat that? Again, identifying with with a gender identity does not, at all, requiere you to identify with the gender stereotypes or gender roles.

Are you capable of reading? The sentence you replied to is broken in two pieces, the first one, which was about GENDER IDENTITY made no mention of sterotypes or gender roles, it just says "having the womanly gender identity". I don' t have that womanly gender identity (whatever the fuck that is), so it means I am not a woman. The second part, which was about stereotypes and sex-based roles, was about GENDER, not GENDER IDENTITY. I didn' t even fucking named it. I said that "cis" means "identifies with the gender assigned at birth". GENDER is about stereotypes and sex roles.

Thing is, we have found a way to treat it. It's just that the treatment to this unusual desire is to grant that desire as far as possible.

If it were a treatment it would cure you from that disconnection to the point that you don' t need to get surgery and collective play pretend anymore. As it is now, transition is a placebo at best. And considering how lots of you react whenever someone "misgenders" you, I would say that it makes things even worse.

Ok. Let's start with bathrooms and rape shelters. Make a petition of turning all sex- and gender-seggregated spaces into gender-neutral ones. I'm absoloutly going to sign that.

Why should I do that? I am against it. I don' t want unisex or "gender neutral" rape shelters, I want sex segregated ones.

A transgender person having a legal gender/legal sex other than his birth sex doesn't force you to pretend anything. Or does a single letter on someones personal ID/passport really have that much power?

Considering the chaos it is doing? Yes, it does. If that letter is not that big of a deal, then there is no reason why trans people should change it. Stop being dumb on purpose.

If "man" and "woman" are just sex categories, than they also should only be used in the context of biological sex, with all instances of their use refering to social categories to be replaced by new terms.

You people are great at creating stupid labels, do it if you want.

Are you full blown delusional? Gender critical groups absoloutly hate gender neutral spaces

We hate them when they replace the male-female ones. We have no problems with added third spaces, the problem is that trans people are not going to use them.

And how would you be sure? Are you just going to ask him and take him at his word? If you see this JPG person in the women's bathroom and, when you raise the question, this person claims to be a trans man, would your "perceived problem" "leave immediately" ?

In an ideal World, the segregation of those spaces would be respected and men would stay out. So any person looking like that would be a woman. I wouldn' t need to ask, she wouldn' t be there unless she was supposed to be there. Alternatively, make that electronic ID with the sex of a person and you don' t need to ask, because only the ones who match that sex should be allowed in. If I knew that person were allowed in a women' s space, I would know she is a woman, regardless of how she looks like.

actually, that is pretty much how both transgender men and transgender women handle it in practice for the most part. Transgender men start using the men's, when they start noticing that them being in the women's start making the women uncomfortable, transgender women start using the women's when they feel shure that they don't make the women uncomfortable, because they generally prefer to not cause to much trouble.

Considering that most trans natal males I have seen have a very distorted idea of how much they pass, I seriously doubt that. Regardless, the "it' s not cheating if you are not caught" is not really something I am interested in justifying or ignoring.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

It means being treated as a second rate citizen, someone somewhat inferior to men, someone who is going to be a mother eventually because that' s what she is supposed to do, someone who becomes unwantable after 30, someone who is going to be a crazy cat owner by 50 uf they don' t get fucked enough, a sex object, someone less intelligent, someone who should stick to feminine roles. Add the issues with biology.

I rather doubt that these are universal experiences of every single women on earth.

Because a biological woman that is a woman and has been raped by an ejaculator is totally going to feel comfortable sharing her space with an ejaculator and totally only going to the female-only' s shelter out of bigotry against her trans sisters.

Do you have any evidence of women who aren't transphobic avoiding women's shelters that admitt transgender women?

Also, if females are so dangerous, why should a dainty, harmless trans woman want to share space with those horribly violent and abusive hags?

Because the likelihood of a woman sorrounded by women to be abused by them is still less then the likelihood for a woman being sorrounded by men.

Also, in Canada the ONLY female-only shelter in the entire country was defunded by the government thanks to the "activism" of a brave and stunning trans woman.

I'm giving back:

WORK.TO.BUILD.SOME!

Then he' s an asshole. Personally I think that sex segregated spaces should have a DNA check so being lying assholes or not, they would get clocked immediately. That pesky Y chromosome!

Because that totally won't screw over women with chromosomal anomalies. And everyone having to wait an hour for the DNA check to run will totally not cause lines to get even worse then they already are. And totally every single establishment will be able to afford and maintain the expensive scientific equipment necessary to run those tests just to satisfy your paranoia. And they will totally never break down or give false positives. And forcebly outing transgender people will totally not result in them getting attacked. And this will totally not be regarded a violation of personal rights. And this will totally...

Or, you know, you could just get over your irrational, paranoid fear of the personj in the cubicle next to you having different gonads than you.

Or, alternatively, putting the sex of a person (the real one) on some kind of electronic ID that should be scanned before entering.

because abusive husbands/pimps/humans traffickers will totally not take control of this ID to keep their victims from getting help at rape shelters. And these will totally be impossible to fake. And these will totally be accessible to women imported by human traffickers. And these will totally be given out free of charge. And these will totally...

And what is to keep some predatory "cis" man from claiming to be a trans woman?

Nothing, other than the fact that he will be very much out of place, have everyone starring at him (meaning easy to identify if he does anything) and everyone will probably hush him out, regardless of any claims he makes.

Can you please elaborate what exactly the problem is if it is all cubicles?

If it' s all cubicles then there is no need to have a woman sign in front of the door. Just make singular spaces that are not grouped according to the woman-man binary.

which is why a lot of transgender people argue for gender neutral spaces. Which gender critical people always fight against. Funny that.

I didn' t say they should be forced to use their sex' s spaces, I just said that they shouldn' t be allowed to use their preferred sex' s spaces. As I said, I don' t care where they go as long as males are not in women' s spaces.

except that there are only the spaces of their gender identity and their birth sex. If you forbid a transgender from using the space of their gender identity, you are forcing them to use the one of their birth sex.

I have no clue what you are trying to say here. If two women with no violent history are grouped together in a shelter then there is no problem.

yes, and if one of these women have testes, there isn't a problem either.

If neither is violent or a sex offender, I don't see how it would matter what gonads the respective women have either.

Of course you don' t! What' s the point of having women' s shelters then? Just let anyone in.

Thanks that you agree. Let's just make shelters for victims of domestic violence and/or sexual abuse, without regard for sex or gender.

Are you capable of reading? The sentence you replied to is broken in two pieces, the first one, which was about GENDER IDENTITY made no mention of sterotypes or gender roles, it just says "having the womanly gender identity". I don' t have that womanly gender identity (whatever the fuck that is), so it means I am not a woman. The second part, which was about stereotypes and sex-based roles, was about GENDER, not GENDER IDENTITY. I didn' t even fucking named it. I said that "cis" means "identifies with the gender assigned at birth". GENDER is about stereotypes and sex roles.

Now you are just playing stupid word games. "Cisgender" really just means that your "Gender Identity" and your birth sex are identical, meaning that you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics.

(Thats why I hate it, when someone just says "gender" without specifying "gender identity" or "gender role". That kind of ambiguity isn't even possible in my language)

If it were a treatment it would cure you from that disconnection to the point that you don' t need to get surgery and collective play pretend anymore. As it is now, transition is a placebo at best.

It does cure the disconect in so far, as after the physical transition the gender identity and the physical body are in a better allignment with each other, causing a significant improvement to psychological wellbeing.

And considering how lots of you react whenever someone "misgenders" you, I would say that it makes things even worse.

actually, rather the opposite. The btter the pass, the rarer the misgendering the easier it is to put up with the occasional mistake by others (though intentional misgendering is still extremly rude).

Why should I do that? I am against it. I don' t want unisex or "gender neutral" rape shelters, I want sex segregated ones.

That was your idea.

Considering the chaos it is doing? Yes, it does. If that letter is not that big of a deal, then there is no reason why trans people should change it. Stop being dumb on purpose.

For transgender people it is a big deal, because having the wrong letter there forcibly outs them to anyone checking their papers which, when dealing with a transphobe, can be quite dangerous. And what chaos are you talking about?

You people are great at creating stupid labels, do it if you want.

you are the one making the demand that would requierre this. Also, a plurality of people (at least according to this poll that asked in the UK https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights ) do regard the terms "men" and "women" to be gender identity based (women more than men). Also, using the word this way requierres less restructuring of language.

We hate them when they replace the male-female ones.

why? Why does this matter to you so much? If it's all cubicles, and you aren't exposed to anyone, why does it matter what kind of gonads the person in the next cubicle has? Can you name any concrete (not some nebulous answer of "Dignity" or something like that) harm from that?

In an ideal World, the segregation of those spaces would be respected and men would stay out. So any person looking like that would be a woman. I wouldn' t need to ask, she wouldn' t be there unless she was supposed to be there.

we don't live in an ideal world, and we never will.

And I really don't get your sticking point. Why does you thinking the person in question to have the same gonads as you cause you to no longer have a problem with them?

Alternatively, make that electronic ID with the sex of a person and you don' t need to ask, because only the ones who match that sex should be allowed in. If I knew that person were allowed in a women' s space, I would know she is a woman, regardless of how she looks like.

Because people will totally not "borrow" the ID's of their female aquantances. And they will totally not...

Regardless, the "it' s not cheating if you are not caught" is not really something I am interested in justifying or ignoring.

It is a better solution than your deranged, irrational paranoia.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm giving back: WORK.TO.BUILD.SOME!

They literally did. Then people like you forced yourselves into them.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I rather doubt that these are universal experiences of every single women on earth.

You are dense or are you just pretending to be stupid? Socialization is about trends. This is what happens to a large number of women all around the World. That there is a miniscule fraction of them that doesn' t live through it doesn' t mean that it doesn' t affect most of us.

Do you have any evidence of women who aren't transphobic avoiding women's shelters that admitt transgender women?

Do you have any evidence of women who aren' t misandrist avoiding shelters that admit males?

i can play that stupid game, too, you know. It doesn' t mean one shit to me if those women are transphobic or not, all I care about is that they should have the right to choose whether or not the person who shares the room with them has a penis.

Because the likelihood of a woman sorrounded by women to be abused by them is still less then the likelihood for a woman being sorrounded by men.

Yep, and you know why that is? Because we have female bodies and as such we were socialized as females. We' re less dangerous because of that. Unlike trans natal males.

I'm giving back: WORK.TO.BUILD.SOME!

Oh, you mean like we have done for the past decades just so that a bunch of men could steal and defund them?

Next time you' ll tell me to grow a uterus and a second X chromosome.

Because that totally won't screw over women with chromosomal anomalies. And everyone having to wait an hour for the DNA check to run will totally not cause lines to get even worse then they already are. And totally every single establishment will be able to afford and maintain the expensive scientific equipment necessary to run those tests just to satisfy your paranoia. And they will totally never break down or give false positives. And forcebly outing transgender people will totally not result in them getting attacked. And this will totally not be regarded a violation of personal rights. And this will totally...

Women with genetic anomalies should be recognized as such, and anyway I said that there is an easier way to do it: just test them once, put the information in an electronic ID and make segregated spaces open only for the ones with the right credentials. In the UK you can get to a train in the subway by passing a badge, I don' t see why this should be different.

Or, you know, you could just get over your irrational, paranoid fear of the personj in the cubicle next to you having different gonads than you.

Or, you know, you could grow some respect for women and stay the fuck away from their spaces? Also, I don' t have irrational fear of testicles-havers, I just fucking loathe the ones who want to shit on women for their own special whims, especially if they then pretend that the same things they are worried about magically lose importance for women. Men are dangerous so trans women don' t want to share spaces with them? Those poor brave souls, of course they have problems with that! Men are dangerous so women don' t want to share spaces with them? Those fucking naziTERFs need to get over it!

because abusive husbands/pimps/humans traffickers will totally not take control of this ID to keep their victims from getting help at rape shelters. And these will totally be impossible to fake. And these will totally be accessible to women imported by human traffickers. And these will totally be given out free of charge. And these will totally...

In those cases, a blood test will do. Sweetheart, it' s really not as hard as you pretend it is: for people who can have that id, they can use it. People who don' t have it for whatever reason get a blood test. I am pretty sure that shelters make medical tests, including blood tests, anyway, so it' s not really something so weird and excruciating that it can' t be done.

which is why a lot of transgender people argue for gender neutral spaces. Which gender critical people always fight against. Funny that.

Again, I have never seen it, and every single trans person I have asked said "nope, we want yours". Also, considering the stupid shit they have managed to pass, I have serious doubts that if they were really committed to it, they wouldn' t be able to do it. As for GC, again, we are against neutral spaces when they replace male-female ones. We don' t give a damn if third spaces are built, go for it: trans people are just not going to use them, though.

othing, other than the fact that he will be very much out of place, have everyone starring at him (meaning easy to identify if he does anything) and everyone will probably hush him out, regardless of any claims he makes.

So exactly like most trans natal males, except trans natal males get to hush women who complain out?

except that there are only the spaces of their gender identity and their birth sex. If you forbid a transgender from using the space of their gender identity, you are forcing them to use the one of their birth sex.

I thought they were fighting non-stop for third spaces? If they wanted them, they would have them. And it' s not my problem if a man doesn' t want to use the men' s bathroom.

yes, and if one of these women have testes, there isn't a problem either.

Women don' t have testicles.

Thanks that you agree. Let's just make shelters for victims of domestic violence and/or sexual abuse, without regard for sex or gender.

You start, I will follow... not.

Now you are just playing stupid word games. "Cisgender" really just means that your "Gender Identity" and your birth sex are identical, meaning that you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics.

I am not playing any game, this is what it' s defined as, identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth. Even if it were about gender identity, as I told you already, I don' t have one. So according to your own definition, I am not a woman. So I guess I am part of the LGBTQ+++++ community, and let me tell you: the community is full of toxic bullshit.

It does cure the disconect in so far, as after the physical transition the gender identity and the physical body are in a better allignment with each other, causing a significant improvement to psychological wellbeing.

If it cured that disconnection, you would have no problems with being referred as your biological sex because you would be ok with being your biological sex.

actually, rather the opposite. The btter the pass, the rarer the misgendering the easier it is to put up with the occasional mistake by others (though intentional misgendering is still extremly rude).

I' ll believe it when I see it.

That was your idea.

Are you familiar with the concept of sarcasm?

For transgender people it is a big deal, because having the wrong letter there forcibly outs them to anyone checking their papers which, when dealing with a transphobe, can be quite dangerous. And what chaos are you talking about?

So it is for me, because it means that women become what men say women are and we are supposed to pretend that it' s totally ok sharing rape shelters and locker rooms with men.

you are the one making the demand that would requierre this.

I am not, you' re the one who said that I need to find a word for social roles if woman and man are for biological sex. I am perfectly happy with calling trans natal males men and trans natal females women.

Also, you were complaining in another comment that if woman and man are biological terms, then there isn' t a word to describe women and passing trans natal males (and men and passing trans natal females) because it would be unacceptable to not have those terms: by that logic, the transgender narrative creates a word in which adult human females do not have words to describe themselves. Why is that ok?

why? Why does this matter to you so much? If it's all cubicles, and you aren't exposed to anyone, why does it matter what kind of gonads the person in the next cubicle has? Can you name any concrete (not some nebulous answer of "Dignity" or something like that) harm from that?

You have made three different links about criticism of unisex spaces. Read those without the bias.

we don't live in an ideal world, and we never will.

Correct, and I refuse to make things worse by supporting men in women' s spaces.

And I really don't get your sticking point. Why does you thinking the person in question to have the same gonads as you cause you to no longer have a problem with them?

Because she was likely socialized similarly as me, which means that she is less likely to be abusive (and in case she is abusive I still have more chances to fight her off). Because the space is for her as well, so it wouldn' t be a man feeling entitled to something that is not his. This is like asking me why I would be ok if my brother used his spare keys to enter my house and wait for me there instead of a stalker breaking in. Yes, there are chances that my brother might be there for less than good reasons, but there is also a strong chance that he is just there to hang out with me, unlike a stalker.

It is a better solution than your deranged, irrational paranoia.

Well, that really opened my eyes and now I am in agreement with you.

That was sarcasm, in case you didn' t understand it.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (11 children)

It means being treated as a second rate citizen, someone somewhat inferior to men, someone who is going to be a mother eventually because that' s what she is supposed to do, someone who becomes unwantable after 30, someone who is going to be a crazy cat owner by 50 uf they don' t get fucked enough, a sex object, someone less intelligent, someone who should stick to feminine roles. Add the issues with biology.

I rather doubt that these are universal experiences of every single women on earth.

You are dense or are you just pretending to be stupid? Socialization is about trends. This is what happens to a large number of women all around the World. That there is a miniscule fraction of them that doesn' t live through it doesn' t mean that it doesn' t affect most of us.

is it a trend or universal? You claimed that this were the experience of all women, regardless of which society or social enviroment they were raised in.

Because a biological woman that is a woman and has been raped by an ejaculator is totally going to feel comfortable sharing her space with an ejaculator and totally only going to the female-only' s shelter out of bigotry against her trans sisters.

Do you have any evidence of women who aren't transphobic avoiding women's shelters that admitt transgender women?

i can play that stupid game, too, you know. It doesn' t mean one shit to me if those women are transphobic or not, all I care about is that they should have the right to choose whether or not the person who shares the room with them has a penis.

so your transphobia is more important than a transgender women getting help when needed?

there is an easier way to do it: just test them once, put the information in an electronic ID and make segregated spaces open only for the ones with the right credentials. In the UK you can get to a train in the subway by passing a badge, I don' t see why this should be different.

Four differences here: a.) that badge is how the subway operator makes sure you paid your fare, which adresses a vital need for them, meanwhile, your "requiere an electronic ID-Badge to use the restroom"-idea is aderessing nothing but your irrational fear of the person in the next cubicle having different gonads than you, b.) the subway operator doesn't have to give the badge to everyone, just people who are likely to use the subway and have paid for that. Your system would requiere at the very least every single woman to be given such a badge, c.) it would forciebly out every single transgender person, making them obvious targets for transphobic attacks and d.) you need a lot less scanners to check every subway passenger than to0 check every single user of a public restroom.

In those cases, a blood test will do. Sweetheart, it' s really not as hard as you pretend it is: for people who can have that id, they can use it. People who don' t have it for whatever reason get a blood test. I am pretty sure that shelters make medical tests, including blood tests, anyway, so it' s not really something so weird and excruciating that it can' t be done.

doesn't change the fact that such a test is needlessly intrusive and expensive.

Again, I have never seen it, and every single trans person I have asked said "nope, we want yours".

Links please.

nothing, other than the fact that he will be very much out of place, have everyone starring at him (meaning easy to identify if he does anything) and everyone will probably hush him out, regardless of any claims he makes.

So exactly like most trans natal males, except trans natal males get to hush women who complain out?

can you link more examples of women being thrown out of the women's restroom for complaining about a trans womens presence than I can link examples of non-transgender women being thrown out of the women's restroom due to them being mistaken for trans women?

I have no clue what you are trying to say here. If two women with no violent history are grouped together in a shelter then there is no problem.

yes, and if one of these women have testes, there isn't a problem either.

Women don' t have testicles.

Trans women arte women and quite a lot of them do have testicles. Anyway, your point was, that, if both women aren't predatory or violent, than even large strength differences don't matter and they can be safely put together in the same room at the womens shelter. So my objection here is, why is it suddennly not the case if one of these women happens to be trans?

"Cisgender" really just means that your "Gender Identity" and your birth sex are identical, meaning that you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics.

I am not playing any game, this is what it' s defined as, identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth. Even if it were about gender identity, as I told you already, I don' t have one. So according to your own definition, I am not a woman. So I guess I am part of the LGBTQ+++++ community, and let me tell you: the community is full of toxic bullshit.

Please reread how I defined "Cisgender" in the immediate preceding quote. If you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics than your gender identity is your biological sex, not a lack of a gender identity.

If it cured that disconnection, you would have no problems with being referred as your biological sex because you would be ok with being your biological sex.

It cured the disconection between the physical body and the gender identity by changing the body to fit the gender identity. Your point is a nonsensical as if someone were to claim that I didn't fix their broken (in truth just unplugged) TV by inserting the plug, because it still doesn't work with the plug pulled.

So it is for me, because it means that women become what men say women are

transgender goes both ways. Because I'm also accepting that trans men are men, does that now mean that men become what women say men are?

we are supposed to pretend that it' s totally ok sharing rape shelters and locker rooms with men.

no , you are not asked that. You are asked to share rape shelters and locker rooms with trans women, which aren't men but women.

by that logic, the transgender narrative creates a word in which adult human females do not have words to describe themselves. Why is that ok?

except there absoloutly are terms for clarifying birth sex when needed. It's terms adapted from the intersex community "AFAB" (assigned female at birth) and "AMAB" (assigned male at birth). But these terms are, nethertheless, not replacements for "women" or "men" ( https://www.reddit.com/r/truscum/comments/l03mpp/see_comment_i_think_this_comic_actually_brings_up/ )

You have made three different links about criticism of unisex spaces. Read those without the bias.

I did read. But I send you back the request to read the article without bias either, because it also mentioned the reasoning behind introducing such spaces.

we don't live in an ideal world, and we never will.

Correct, and I refuse to make things worse by supporting men in women' s spaces.

And I try to make things better by allowing transgender people to use the gender-seperated spaces of their gender identity, instead of withholding them full and equal participation in society out of pure bigotry.

Because she was likely socialized similarly as me, which means that she is less likely to be abusive

no, you just assume. As already pointed out, socialization is not monolithic.

and in case she is abusive I still have more chances to fight her off

except the exogonous testosterone in transgender men cause their masculature to become more like cis men's.

Because the space is for her as well, so it wouldn' t be a man feeling entitled to something that is not his.

for all your talk about trans women being "entitled", you come of as quite a bit more entitled, what with you demanding constant checks of everyone regarding their biological sex, just because your irrational fear of a tiny minority.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You can call them "(trans) women" all the times you want. They are still males and everybody knows it even if a lot of people nowadays pretend otherwise. Most of trans natal males are sexually attracted to women. Most of them keep their male genitalia intact. Many of them have no problem sending dissident women death and rape threats (and quite often said threats include mentions of their "girldicks"). And they retain male patterns of criminality. Not all males commit violent crimes, but most of violent criminals are males. And sex offenders are overwhelmingly males.

Transactivists are asking women to accept males in intimate places like bathrooms, changing rooms, shelters, etcetera and that we pretend not to notice they are males. And honestly, the fact that a lot of trans natal males are keen on ignoring women's boundaries speaks volumes on how they would treat women in those spaces.

except there absoloutly are terms for clarifying birth sex when needed. It's terms adapted from the intersex community "AFAB" (assigned female at birth) and "AMAB" (assigned male at birth). But these terms are, nethertheless, not replacements for "women" or "men" (

Those are terms that transactivists have appropriated from the intersex community despite that most people who identify as trans don't have any DSD. Moreover, "assigned male (or female) at birth" doesn't make sense for the vast majority of humans who don't have any DSD. Sex is not assigned at birth, but observed and recorded at birth. Though, thanks to modern medical technology, your parents very likely knew your sex before you were born.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

You can call them "(trans) women" all the times you want. They are still males and everybody knows it even if a lot of people nowadays pretend otherwise.

"women" is gender Identity, "male" is biological sex. Those are different, and no one would claim otherwise.

Most of trans natal males are sexually attracted to women.

actual statistics: Of the trans women respondents 27% answered gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving, 20% answered bisexual, 19% heterosexual, 16% pansexual, 6% answered asexual, 6% queer, and 6% did not answer.[5] ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_sexuality )

Transactivists are asking women to accept males in intimate places like bathrooms, changing rooms, shelters, etcetera and that we pretend not to notice they are males. And honestly, the fact that a lot of trans natal males are keen on ignoring women's boundaries speaks volumes on how they would treat women in those spaces.

Do you have any evidence, that letting transgender women use women's bathrooms/changing rooms/shelters causes an statistical increase in violations of safety and privacy? Because this study 1 shows otherwise.

Those are terms that transactivists have appropriated from the intersex community despite that most people who identify as trans don't have any DSD. Moreover, "assigned male (or female) at birth" doesn't make sense for the vast majority of humans who don't have any DSD. Sex is not assigned at birth, but observed and recorded at birth.

I am just informing about how the terms are used, not making a statement regarding the correctness/incorrectness about said term-use.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"women" is gender Identity, "male" is biological sex. Those are different, and no one would claim otherwise.

No, you don’t decide what I can say or not. “Woman”, “man”, “female”, and “male” are all based on biological sex. “Gender identity” is term coined in mid-20th century and it has only become more used in recent years. Through most of human history people didn’t have a concept of “gender identity”. Even today, lots of people don’t care about “gender identity”. I don’t believe in this stuff and I don’t have a gender identity. I just know I’m a woman.

actual statistics: Of the trans women respondents 27% answered gay, lesbian, or same-gender-loving, 20% answered bisexual, 19% heterosexual, 16% pansexual, 6% answered asexual, 6% queer, and 6% did not answer.5

Can I assume those numbers are based on gender identity rather than sex? I guess so, considering the usage of the word lesbian. So, I’ll exclude the queer ones because that could mean whatever. So, according to this, at least 63% of trans natal males are sexually attracted to women (27% same gender attracted + 20% bisexual + 16% pansexual + an unknown number from the queers and those who didn’t answer). And 63% > 37%. Thank you very much to prove my point.

Do you have any evidence, that letting transgender women use women's bathrooms/changing rooms/shelters causes an statistical increase in violations of safety and privacy? Because this study 1 shows otherwise.

This study from Sweden shows that transsexuals undergoing “SRS” have similar criminal rates than male controls.

In 2018, Unesco said single sex bathrooms are need to secure girls’ access to education.

In the UK, statistics about sexual assaults in public swimming pools show unisex changing rooms increase the risk of such incidents for women.

Here is a compilation of the many threats sent to J.K. Rowling. Oh, and do you remember when JKR was declared dead after a misrepresentation of her last book? More examples of the kind of threats sent by transactivists here, here, here, here, and here. And here is an example of my country, where a trans natal male attacked a radical feminist trying to talk about prostitution in gathering previous to International Women’s Day in 2019. Why should women accept to share intimate places like bathrooms, changing rooms, etcetera with these males? Oh, and surely, you’ve heard of Jessica Yaniv and Karen White, right? Again, why should women accept males, not matter how they identify, in sex-segregated spaces?

Not all males, whether they are trans or not, commit violent crimes but most of violent criminals are males. Women can’t tell who is a dangerous male and who isn’t a first glance. But even in the case of male who won’t hurt a fly, well, sorry, but they are not entitled to enter to such places because women want privacy in addition to safety there. If trans natal males don’t want to share places like bathrooms, etcetera with regular males, then they can campaign for third spaces.

I am just informing about how the terms are used, not making a statement regarding the correctness/incorrectness about said term-use.

And I’m explaining how transactivists misuse those terms.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

is it a trend or universal? You claimed that this were the experience of all women, regardless of which society or social enviroment they were raised in.

All women are treated in a different way than men. The way they are treated differently is not the same, but they all face double standards and different treatments than men.

so your transphobia is more important than a transgender women getting help when needed?

So trans women' s feelings are more important than a woman' s feelings and safety?

I told you I can play that game as well.

Four differences here: a.) that badge is how the subway operator makes sure you paid your fare, which adresses a vital need for them, meanwhile, your "requiere an electronic ID-Badge to use the restroom"-idea is aderessing nothing but your irrational fear of the person in the next cubicle having different gonads than you

It makes a point of having distinct categories based on realities and gives people the option of choosing.

the subway operator doesn't have to give the badge to everyone, just people who are likely to use the subway and have paid for that. Your system would requiere at the very least every single woman to be given such a badge

I don' t see the problem with that. Plus, I am not really sure how it works in other countries, but in mine we have sanitary electronic badges so they could be easily modified to be read by a reader outside of those places or do it with ID documents in general as long as they are electronic. You don' t need a different badge, you can use the ones you already have.

it would forciebly out every single transgender person, making them obvious targets for transphobic attacks

Why? You don' t have to show those badges to anyone besides the automatic reader in front of those spaces. Plus, if you don' t have the necessary qualification to use that space, only an idiot would still use the badge and be left out publicly for it.

you need a lot less scanners to check every subway passenger than to0 check every single user of a public restroom.

And? If we could adapt pretty much all spaces to accomodate people with disabilities, we can put a reader in front of sex segregated spaces.

doesn't change the fact that such a test is needlessly intrusive and expensive.

Blood tests are neither intrusive of expensive.

Links please.

Ask reddit to reinstate the old debate sub and I will look into the old threads to find them. Mask is one of the posters who have that attitude in general, they claim they support sex segregation for certain things and refuse it for everything else, but even for the things they support, they say that it' s useless to fight for third spaces.

EDIT: Here is a story of a trans natal male trying to set up a shelter for trans people (with help from both liberal and radical feminists) just to have his idea shot down by trans people who wanted to use shelters of their preferred sex. Hannah Mouncey threw a hissy fit because the women who were playing with him didn' t want to share showers and locker rooms with him: he commented with "And the reason I’m not liked is because I told our manager, and by extension those players, exactly where he and they could go in trying to tell me where I could change and shower.".

can you link more examples of women being thrown out of the women's restroom for complaining about a trans womens presence than I can link examples of non-transgender women being thrown out of the women's restroom due to them being mistaken for trans women?

I don' t know, but I don' t care much: I am 100% in agreement with men being thrown out of women' s spaces, and 100% in disagreement with women being thrown out of women' s spaces because they object to men being there. SO to me, one woman being kicked out is one too many, while 100 men being kicked out are not enough.

yes, and if one of these women have testes, there isn't a problem either.

Women don' t have testicles.

Trans women arte women

Trans women are men.

Anyway, your point was, that, if both women aren't predatory or violent, than even large strength differences don't matter and they can be safely put together in the same room at the womens shelter. So my objection here is, why is it suddennly not the case if one of these women happens to be trans?

Because that person is not a woman.

Please reread how I defined "Cisgender" in the immediate preceding quote. If you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics than your gender identity is your biological sex, not a lack of a gender identity.

You can call that gender identity as much as you want, it isn' t. It' s either a mental illness or the result of strict social pressures. You are talking like an incensed Christian extremist who wants to force everyone to believe in the original sin. I don' t believe in gender identity, you can tell me I have one as much as you want, I consider it as stupid as telling me that I need to be baptized to clean Adam and Eve' s eating that fucking apple.

It cured the disconection between the physical body and the gender identity by changing the body to fit the gender identity. Your point is a nonsensical as if someone were to claim that I didn't fix their broken (in truth just unplugged) TV by inserting the plug, because it still doesn't work with the plug pulled.

You wouldn' t have fixed that tv if the tv wasn' t broken to begin with. If it' s not broken, it doesn' t need to be fixed.

transgender goes both ways. Because I'm also accepting that trans men are men, does that now mean that men become what women say men are?

If women who identify as men were half as aggressive as men who identify as women, and biological men were half as conditioned to be accepting as biological women are, we would have the same push to re-define manhood as we have to re-define womanhood. And I would be against that as well. But yes, any woman who is trying to re-define manhood is attempting to do the same thing and I am against it. The difference is that men laugh in women' s face when they try to do it and those women keep whining about it and nothing else. WHen that happens because men do it to women, we get threatened.

no , you are not asked that. You are asked to share rape shelters and locker rooms with trans women, which aren't men but women.

They are men who call themselves women.

except there absoloutly are terms for clarifying birth sex when needed. It's terms adapted from the intersex community "AFAB" (assigned female at birth) and "AMAB" (assigned male at birth). But these terms are, nethertheless, not replacements for "women" or "men" ( https://www.reddit.com/r/truscum/comments/l03mpp/see_comment_i_think_this_comic_actually_brings_up/ )

AFAB/AMAB are intersex terms that the trans community has stolen (like pretty much everything else). Intersex people have serious reasons to define themselves as assigned one sex or another because their sexual developmental disorder makes it impossible, at birth, to be 100% correct in that assumption. People who are not intersex are not "assigned" a sex, we are observed to belong to one sex or another.

Also, Sophie Labelle, really? I am supposed to follow the lead of a furry who gets off on roleplaying as a child? ROLE MODEL! 👍

I did read. But I send you back the request to read the article without bias either, because it also mentioned the reasoning behind introducing such spaces.

Including protection for women and respect for their privacy.

And I try to make things better by allowing transgender people to use the gender-seperated spaces of their gender identity, instead of withholding them full and equal participation in society out of pure bigotry.

You do that, I care about women more than I care about men who call themselves women.

no, you just assume. As already pointed out, socialization is not monolithic.

I assume they have had similar experiences as me when it comes to their bodies and sex, unlike males.

except the exogonous testosterone in transgender men cause their masculature to become more like cis men's.

Yes, and no. Women on testosterone might be stronger than me, but they still end up being far weaker than any man, transitioned or not. SO yes, I have more chances to win a fight against CHase Strangio than I have to win a fight against Laverne Cox.

for all your talk about trans women being "entitled", you come of as quite a bit more entitled, what with you demanding constant checks of everyone regarding their biological sex, just because your irrational fear of a tiny minority.

I don' t demand constant checks in the least, them passing a badge in front of a reader is not "constant" checks. They have their sex listed together with any other information that can be useful in one way or another. If they didn' t want to do it, they would be free to use those third spaces you keep claiming that every single one of you wants and is fighting for.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

All women are treated in a different way than men. The way they are treated differently is not the same, but they all face double standards and different treatments than men.

than it is meaningless to talk about "female socialization" as a singular thing that has any bearing towards asumptions about likely behavior.

so your transphobia is more important than a transgender women getting help when needed?

So trans women' s feelings are more important than a woman' s feelings and safety?

when the only reason for your "bad feelings" are your transphobia, yes. And you still, after days of discussion, have not been able to produce any statistical evidence proving that the adoption of trans-inclusive policies by women's shelters leads to a significant rise in violent/sexual predatory behavior.

Four differences here: a.) that badge is how the subway operator makes sure you paid your fare, which adresses a vital need for them, meanwhile, your "requiere an electronic ID-Badge to use the restroom"-idea is aderessing nothing but your irrational fear of the person in the next cubicle having different gonads than you

It makes a point of having distinct categories based on realities and gives people the option of choosing.

what "option of choosing" does it give anyone to force people into the bathroom of their birth sex?

I don' t see the problem with that. Plus, I am not really sure how it works in other countries, but in mine we have sanitary electronic badges so they could be easily modified to be read by a reader outside of those places or do it with ID documents in general as long as they are electronic. You don' t need a different badge, you can use the ones you already have.

I have never heard of any such thing. What would even be the reasoning behind some electronic badge just to use the restroom? Sounds utterly absurd.

it would forciebly out every single transgender person, making them obvious targets for transphobic attacks

Why? You don' t have to show those badges to anyone besides the automatic reader in front of those spaces. Plus, if you don' t have the necessary qualification to use that space, only an idiot would still use the badge and be left out publicly for it.

are you really asking why forcing a stealth transgender person to use the restroom of their birth sex is forciebly outing them? Which, as I already linked significantly increases their risk of being attacked ( https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html )

you need a lot less scanners to check every subway passenger than to0 check every single user of a public restroom.

And? If we could adapt pretty much all spaces to accomodate people with disabilities, we can put a reader in front of sex segregated spaces.

with the difference that accomondations for people with disabilities allows people who would otherwise not be able to participate in society to do so, while your over-the-top transphobic plan instead keeps people from particiüpating in society for no other reason than your bigotry.

doesn't change the fact that such a test is needlessly intrusive and expensive.

Blood tests are neither intrusive of expensive.

It costs roughly 1000 $ to sequence a human genome 1 and demanding a blood test for me to use the restroom shure as hell is intrusive.

can you link more examples of women being thrown out of the women's restroom for complaining about a trans womens presence than I can link examples of non-transgender women being thrown out of the women's restroom due to them being mistaken for trans women?

I don' t know, but I don' t care much: I am 100% in agreement with men being thrown out of women' s spaces, and 100% in disagreement with women being thrown out of women' s spaces because they object to men being there. SO to me, one woman being kicked out is one too many, while 100 men being kicked out are not enough.

reread what I wrote again. I talked about non-transgender womenh (aka how you define "women") getting kicked out of the women's restroom due to being mistaken for transgender. I have actually seen calculations, that, even if one were to be able to tell with 99% accuracy which one is trans and which is not, it would (due to transgender people being such a small minority) STILL result in more women being falsly thrown out than transgender women being kept out. So the over-agressive bathroom-policing of the kind you are advocating for harms more non-transgender women than transgender women.

yes, and if one of these women have testes, there isn't a problem either.

Women don' t have testicles.

trans women are women, and quite often have testicles.

Trans women arte women

Trans women are men.

trans women are women.

Anyway, your point was, that, if both women aren't predatory or violent, than even large strength differences don't matter and they can be safely put together in the same room at the womens shelter. So my objection here is, why is it suddennly not the case if one of these women happens to be trans?

Because that person is not a woman.

except she is. So, again, your point was, that, if both women aren't predatory or violent, than even large strength differences don't matter and they can be safely put together in the same room at the womens shelter. So my objection here is, why is it suddennly not the case if one of these women happens to be trans? Can you answer that question without resorting to bigotry?

Please reread how I defined "Cisgender" in the immediate preceding quote. If you have no desire to change your physical anatomy to resemble that of the opposite sex, somewhere in between or be completly rid of sexual characteristics than your gender identity is your biological sex, not a lack of a gender identity.

You can call that gender identity as much as you want, it isn' t.

It is.

It cured the disconection between the physical body and the gender identity by changing the body to fit the gender identity. Your point is a nonsensical as if someone were to claim that I didn't fix their broken (in truth just unplugged) TV by inserting the plug, because it still doesn't work with the plug pulled.

You wouldn' t have fixed that tv if the tv wasn' t broken to begin with. If it' s not broken, it doesn' t need to be fixed.

The analogy clearly went over your head.

transgender goes both ways. Because I'm also accepting that trans men are men, does that now mean that men become what women say men are?

If women who identify as men were half as aggressive as men who identify as women, and biological men were half as conditioned to be accepting as biological women are, we would have the same push to re-define manhood as we have to re-define womanhood.

In what way don't we see the same "push to re-define manhood as we have to re-define womanhood" ? In both cases people who acording to your bioessentialist definitions have no claim to the terms "men"/"women" demand inclusion in these terms, effectively demanding them both to be redifined as social categories, not biological ones.

no , you are not asked that. You are asked to share rape shelters and locker rooms with trans women, which aren't men but women.

They are men who call themselves women.

They are women who happen to be trans.

Also, Sophie Labelle, really? I am supposed to follow the lead of a furry who gets off on roleplaying as a child? ROLE MODEL! 👍

I was talking about the comments below. Sophie Labelle isn't all that popular in that sub either, just a few days ago there was a well-received post in that sub calling for her cancellation.

Including protection for women and respect for their privacy.

That privacy is already secured due to cubicles.

no, you just assume. As already pointed out, socialization is not monolithic.

I assume they have had similar experiences as me when it comes to their bodies and sex, unlike males.

Not really. Gender dysphoria causes the relationship of transgender people towards their body and the development of said body to be very much different from a cisgender of the same birth sexe's experience with their body and their bodies development.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

than it is meaningless to talk about "female socialization" as a singular thing that has any bearing towards asumptions about likely behavior.

You are entitled to think that.

when the only reason for your "bad feelings" are your transphobia, yes. And you still, after days of discussion, have not been able to produce any statistical evidence proving that the adoption of trans-inclusive policies by women's shelters leads to a significant rise in violent/sexual predatory behavior.

My reason for that is considering material reality more important than feelings. And after days of debating, you still don' t get that even if there were no attacks from men in those shelters, those men should still not be there.

what "option of choosing" does it give anyone to force people into the bathroom of their birth sex?

I have no clue what this sentence mean.

I have never heard of any such thing. What would even be the reasoning behind some electronic badge just to use the restroom? Sounds utterly absurd.

It sounds absurd to you because breaking that rule is beneficial to you.

are you really asking why forcing a stealth transgender person to use the restroom of their birth sex is forciebly outing them? Which, as I already linked significantly increases their risk of being attacked ( https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html )

I AM NOT TELLING THEM TO USE THEIR BIRTH SEX' S FACILITY, I AM TELLING THEM TO FIGHT FOR THIRD SPACES AND USE THEM, which you keep claiming they do, and yet you keep whining about letting all of you inside your preferred ones. If they are not willing to do it, I don' t care where they go as long as it' s not women' s bathrooms.

with the difference that accomondations for people with disabilities allows people who would otherwise not be able to participate in society to do so, while your over-the-top transphobic plan instead keeps people from particiüpating in society for no other reason than your bigotry.

Nobody is keeping them from participating in society, they just have to follow the same rules everyone else has to follow. If that' s too much for them, it' s their problem, not mine.

It costs roughly 1000 $ to sequence a human genome 1 and demanding a blood test for me to use the restroom shure as hell is intrusive.

That stuff is usually done at birth. You keep pretending that this is something that would have to be done every time you use a public space, I already explained how it should be done. Personally, I think that sanitary badges should carry those informations regardless of this stupid debate anyway, so you are barking at the wrong tree.

reread what I wrote again. I talked about non-transgender womenh (aka how you define "women") getting kicked out of the women's restroom due to being mistaken for transgender. I have actually seen calculations, that, even if one were to be able to tell with 99% accuracy which one is trans and which is not, it would (due to transgender people being such a small minority) STILL result in more women being falsly thrown out than transgender women being kept out. So the over-agressive bathroom-policing of the kind you are advocating for harms more non-transgender women than transgender women.

GNC women are being thrown out because they are mistaken for men, and the only reason why there is a surge in that attitude is because men are allowed to be in women' s spaces. WOmen don' t want men there, so they are hyper focused on finding people who might look like that' s not their place. This is entirely on the trans movement. As I said already said, if there were a way to make it fixed who can and who cannot use those spaces, by listing your biological sex, things would settle down again and this wouldn' t happen, or if it happened, those women would be able to show that they have the right to be there. As it is now, everyone can get in, and no surprise there, GNC women are getting the flacks without doing anything wrong, while men who should get flack have all benefits from it.

trans women are women, and quite often have testicles.

Nope.

trans women are women.

Nope.

except she is.

Nope.

It is.

Nope.

The analogy clearly went over your head.

Nope.

In what way don't we see the same "push to re-define manhood as we have to re-define womanhood" ? In both cases people who acording to your bioessentialist definitions have no claim to the terms "men"/"women" demand inclusion in these terms, effectively demanding them both to be redifined as social categories, not biological ones.

Expect the women are not threatening with death and torture threads the men who don' t comply, women are more likely to be described as "uterus havers", "birthing body", "menstruator" and similar shit than men are likely to be called "ejaculators", "prostate havers" and "penis person", women' s spaces are more likely to be disrupted and defunded, women are more likely to be cancelled, lesbians are more likely to be called out on their "transphobic" genital preferences...

They are women who happen to be trans.

Nope.

I was talking about the comments below. Sophie Labelle isn't all that popular in that sub either, just a few days ago there was a well-received post in that sub calling for her cancellation.

Still doesn' t change the fact that those terms are intersex terms that nobody except them should use. I definitely won' t, not only because I am not intersex, but also because I already have a perfect word that describes my biology: woman.

That privacy is already secured due to cubicles.

As I already said, you are free to campaign for unisex spaces.

Not really. Gender dysphoria causes the relationship of transgender people towards their body and the development of said body to be very much different from a cisgender of the same birth sexe's experience with their body and their bodies development.

I was talking about the women, not the men who call themselves women. Women are more likely to have similar experiences to me in regards of their bodies. Trans people can have different experiences compared to the ones of members of their sex, but their experiences are still more likely to be similar to that than the ones of people of the other sex.

[–]Taln_Reich 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

And I try to make things better by allowing transgender people to use the gender-seperated spaces of their gender identity, instead of withholding them full and equal participation in society out of pure bigotry.

You do that, I care about women more than I care about men who call themselves women.

No, you don't. What you actually care for is needlessly tormenting transgender people. If you cared about people, you would aknowledge that the kind of irrational, paranoid bathroom-policing you are advocating for harms transgender people 2 including transgender men (which you would call "women") while providing no benefit in terms of safety/privacy to women at all 3.

except the exogonous testosterone in transgender men cause their masculature to become more like cis men's.

Yes, and no. Women on testosterone might be stronger than me, but they still end up being far weaker than any man, transitioned or not. SO yes, I have more chances to win a fight against CHase Strangio than I have to win a fight against Laverne Cox.

a.) wrong, there is a significant overlap in physical ability between the sexes, even leaving out transgender people. b.) wrong, tell that to the women who were scared of fighting Mack Beggs ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Beggs ). c.) wrong, even a single year on HRT causes the strength differences between transgender women and transgender men to shrink to next to nothing ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6652261/#:~:text=A%20decrease%20in%20grip%20strength,to%2Dmale%20trans%20people). ). Longer term HRT is almost certainly going to result in transgender men being stronger.

for all your talk about trans women being "entitled", you come of as quite a bit more entitled, what with you demanding constant checks of everyone regarding their biological sex, just because your irrational fear of a tiny minority.

I don' t demand constant checks in the least, them passing a badge in front of a reader is not "constant" checks.

Yes, that is constant checks. A person should not need a ID-Bagde to use a public bathroom. That is simply absurd.

[–]Omina_SentenziosaSarcastic Ovalord 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No, you don't. What you actually care for is needlessly tormenting transgender people.

I don' t give a damn about "tormenting" transgender people, if they stayed in their lane, I wouldn' t even think of them. This is 100% the result of them invading spaces that are not theirs.

If you cared about people, you would aknowledge that the kind of irrational, paranoid bathroom-policing you are advocating for harms transgender people 2 including transgender men (which you would call "women") while providing no benefit in terms of safety/privacy to women at all 3.

Women who identify as men support the same ideology as men who identify as women. As I already told you more than once, I have no problem with them getting their spaces, they don' t want them. And if they are allowed to not want them and shit on women' s rights and dignity, then I am allowed to not want mixed spaces either.

a.) wrong, there is a significant overlap in physical ability between the sexes, even leaving out transgender people.

This doesn' t address the issue anyway: yes, there are stronger women and weaker men, I would still take my chance with a woman than a man.

b.) wrong, tell that to the women who were scared of fighting Mack Beggs ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Beggs ).

Yes, because, as I said, testosterone makes women stronger. Doesn' t mean it makes them as strong as a man. Furthermore, I think the issue here was more about having a woman taking a drug that is considered doping than anything else.

c.) wrong, even a single year on HRT causes the strength differences between transgender women and transgender men to shrink to next to nothing ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6652261/#:~:text=A%20decrease%20in%20grip%20strength,to%2Dmale%20trans%20people). ). Longer term HRT is almost certainly going to result in transgender men being stronger.

Again, I have already said at least twice that I acknwoledge that they are stronger than a regular woman, I would still prefer fighting Chase Strangio over Laverne Cox.

Yes, that is constant checks. A person should not need a ID-Bagde to use a public bathroom. That is simply absurd.

A person shouldn' t need to see "women' s only" and then find a man there, but here we are. And no, a constant check is continuous medical exams as far as I am concerned, passing a badge is a check in the same way passing my university badge to record my presence at a lesson was a constant check.